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Z (Archived) Copyright - Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

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Jim Wynne

Super Moderator
#11
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

As for approaching the ISO for opinion will be like awaking a sleeping giant.
Their stand will predictably be against copying.Will everyone stop copying,
once so ruled?I have serious doubts.
Umang:agree1:
I think that if ISO wouldn't consider a polite request, they would have just said "No copying," without the "without written permission" part. I have no dog in this hunt, and I don't think that the posting as it stands hurts anyone, and might be helpful to many, so I don't see any point in taking it down. I think we need to avoid playing lawyer here, though. This really isn't a legal issue until someone complains, and I'm not sure it's even an ethical issue. The whole subject of ethics is too full of subjectivity to be useful in a case like this. I think it boils down to whether or not we feel it's courteous to ask for permission when someone has clearly stated that they want to be asked.
 
U

Umang Vidyarthi

#12
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

I think that if ISO wouldn't consider a polite request, they would have just said "No copying," without the "without written permission" part. I have no dog in this hunt, and I don't think that the posting as it stands hurts anyone, and might be helpful to many, so I don't see any point in taking it down. I think we need to avoid playing lawyer here, though. This really isn't a legal issue until someone complains, and I'm not sure it's even an ethical issue. The whole subject of ethics is too full of subjectivity to be useful in a case like this. I think it boils down to whether or not we feel it's courteous to ask for permission when someone has clearly stated that they want to be asked.
Thanks jim.Since it is not "No copying" I stand corrected.:agree1:
 
J

JaneB

#13
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

Interesting.

So, to summarise the facts:

1. The material in question was not written or created in the Cove.
2. The material is owned by ISO, who wrote, or caused to be written, the information.
3. The owner, ISO, has been very explicit in the use of their material, and set very explicit restrictions on the use of material from its website including (bold added):

All rights reserved. The material on ISO Online is subject to the same conditions of copyright as ISO publications... use is subject to the user's acceptance of ISO's conditions of copyright for ISO publications, as set out below. Any use of the material, including reproduction in whole or in part to another Internet site, requires permission in writing from ISO....

Requests should be addressed to the ISO Central Secretariat
4. You are aware of this Copyright statement. You have not complied with it, nor apparently intend to do so.
5. You have a wide range of reasons for not doing this, from the difficulty of maintaining links, to the use of said material is 'fair use'.

Sorry, but I disagree on all your arguments.

I think it's not just courtesy (that's part of it). I do think there's a matter of principle involved. I'm disappointed that the Cove condones this, allows it to be done, and allows this kind of example to be set.

Possibly if the head office of ISO was in the USA, and thus you were both subject to the same law, I might take a different point of view. But using a USA law to justify your use of their material? No.

Perhaps it's because it's 'just electronic info', and it's so easy to take that people sometimes treat it with less respect for ownership than physical product?

You claim fair use. I've looked at the Stanford site you reference, which has this to say about fair use (italics mine):

Most fair use analysis falls into two categories: commentary and criticism; or parody.

1. Comment and Criticism

If you are commenting upon or critiquing a copyrighted work--for instance, writing a book review -- fair use principles allow you to reproduce some of the work to achieve your purposes. Some examples of commentary and criticism include:

  • quoting a few lines from a Bob Dylan song in a music review
  • summarizing and quoting from a medical article on prostate cancer in a news report
  • copying a few paragraphs from a news article for use by a teacher or student in a lesson, or
  • copying a portion of a Sports Illustrated magazine article for use in a related court case
.
The underlying rationale of this rule is that the public benefits from your review, which is enhanced by including some of the copyrighted material. Additional examples of commentary or criticism are provided in the examples of fair use cases in Section C.

2. Parody

A parody is a work that ridicules another, usually well-known work, by imitating it in a comic way. Judges understand that by its nature, parody demands some taking from the original work being parodied. Unlike other forms of fair use, a fairly extensive use of the original work is permitted in a parody in order to "conjure up" the original.
The only example I see that might come close is the 'copying of a few paragraphs by a teacher'... but this copying goes beyond that to a LOT of paragraphs, which is the main thing I object to.

You're comfortable with it being done, and bring up an enormous range of arguments which seem to boil down to 'they'd lose a legal case'. I'm not, and wouldn't do it. I simply don't see there's any difference between this grabbing & pasting large chunks of material into one's own website and doing the same in a book or a magazine, whether or not you give that book/magazine away. And arguments along the line of 'well, if did the right thing it wouldn't stop other folks copying/stealing' are immaterial, and the top of a very slippery slope.

Clearly, you perceive a benefit to the Cove in having the material permananently available. You use the material because of the perceived benefit in the Cover posting large chunks of the information in this website. (Otherwise, presumably it wouldn't be done).

But you aren't commenting or critiquing on the material - you're just using it for its benefits, aren't you? Because it saves you writing your own? Because it makes it easy to point newbies at? Because it's good stuff to have around? I can see all these points, and they're all laudable. But then, the road to hell is paved with them good intentions. :)

I think it would be polite (at least) to accede to their very clearly stated request - and ask them for permission.

WHy not do that? After all, they might come back to you and say 'no problems, use away, we think you're doing a wonderful job educating people out there about the Standards and we're quite happy for you to do this'. Or they might not.

To argue that you don't need to do that because they might say no and thus it might prejudice any legal case simply leaves me speechless. (though only temporarily probably :)
 

Marc

Captain Nice
Staff member
Admin
#14
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

The Moderators have reviewed the posts in question and at this time I do not see an issue. The ISO folks are well aware of this site and have been for years. They have, in the past, asked me to remove certain content. When they ask me to remove content (the last time was back around 1999, if I remember correctly), I do it (as I will for anyone complaining of copyright violations).

As to Sidney's 'Cut and Pastes', I admit it's a toss up which, if the ISO folks asked me to remove I would/will without hesitation. I seriously doubt, however, they will get excited about their FAQ being reproduced elsewhere including here. In addition, the links in the copied material are to the appropriate ISO web site pages so the original is cited throughout the 'Cut and Paste' posts.

If the ISO folks were making a profit off of the FAQ this would be an entirely different issue.

In part I am replying in this thread to sort of cool things out a bit. Some people are more emotional about copyright than others.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#15
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

For the sake of argument along this subject line nearly every provider of training, whether large or small and using Jane's reasoning, is violating copyright. Everyone of them will cut-and-paste from a standard into their training material.

Continuing . . . I am a frequent "cut-and-paster" here in the cove. Many of the standards I reference were purchased by DSEQ, Inc., for our use as we deemed applicable and necessary for providing training, information, and assistance to our clients and/or others we have a relationship with. The "Fair Use" doctrine allows us to use, but not abuse, as long as we give credit and not offer for sale the document itself.

Part of my graduate degree studies required a course in international business law, a large portion of which dealt with copyright and patent law and protection. Additionally, as a qualified paralegal in business law, copyright and patent rights were a fairly good portion of the training I took as well. With regards to the copyright, as long as credit is provided and the "material" itself is not offered for sale, brief use of it may be incorporated into other published material...no harm, no foul.
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#16
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

Just so you all know: since Jane is soooooooooooooooo uncomfortable with the whole situation, I contacted ISO about my posts and copying of the information on to the Cove. I sent them a message last Sunday, June 24th and have not received any reply yet.

If it so happens that ISO tells me that we can't do what I have been doing, I will stop the practice right away and make Jane happy, while hundreds of other Covers won't be too pleased.

If ISO really wanted people not to be able to copy information from their website, there are easy ways to set up webpages in a way that copying material is automatically prohibited.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#17
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

Sidney is so right! Everything from sales brochures to training material has cut-and-paste from the ISO site. They put the information out for a reason.....to get the information out!
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#18
Re: ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)

Hello Fellow Covers,

Thank you Sidney, Randy, Wes, Jane and Jim for the excellent and very meaningful and respectful discussion about the use of (ISO site and/or other) information. A breath of fresh air compared to some other (heated) discussions we have on The Cove lately. I look forward to this type of discussion on The Cove.

Thanks Again!

Stijloor.
Hello Covers,

I was initially encouraged and very pleased with the way the dialogue in this thread was going. Now, I am not so sure anymore......
Please people, nobody gains from going after each other. We as quality professionals should set an example of what good dialogue should be. This forum is about learning from each other and helping others who also want to learn. Regrettably, I noticed that in some threads, participants are more interested in scoring intellectual (or semi-intellectual) touch-downs than engaging in meaningful and positive dialogue. Let's show the Covers that we can do better!

Stijloor.
 
J

JaneB

#19
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

For the sake of argument along this subject line nearly every provider of training, whether large or small and using Jane's reasoning, is violating copyright. Everyone of them will cut-and-paste from a standard into their training material.
You make a good point, Randy. Thanks for pointing it out, and enabling me to clarify. (That's the thing about debates, BTW, they're so useful in forcing one to be clear. One extended debate with someone on this forum - not you, dear Randy! - helped me reach a viewpoint of clarity on something I was really pleased to reach.)

OK, let's go back to the 'fair use' principle. Indeed, I have quoted words from Standards myself in this forum & out of it, both very briefly and in order to comment, illustrate and/or make a point or an argument.

But I am not, and have not, argued the point about those uses.

I am contending that the particular use in this particular instance is not in that category. It is wholesale cutting & pasting & the using of many (not 'a few') paragraphs. There is no comment upon them, nor discussion - beyond:
I mastered the ancient art of "cut&paste"
I have great respect for the excellent work done in the Cove and the willingness of so many people across the globe to be so generous with their time and experience to help others. I am neither asking nor demanding things done to make me 'happy' - indeed to imply or state this is either misinterpreting or miscontruing what I have said. Nor am I attacking or criticising any person. I am focussing on an issue - and there is a difference between the two (ie, criticising an issue, not a person).

I am raising a principle and querying this particularuse of quoting. That very specific use in that specific instance, and not a widespread attack on any quoting whatsoever.

I think there's a very important principle involved, and I'm a bit dismayed that it seems to be lost among the storm of justification & disagreement and slightly spurious justifications.

Finally, I am fully aware that this is not a 'popular' viewpoint, in fact an uncomfortable one in some ways. While I would prefer not to find myself opposing some people whose opinions I otherwise respect, my own ethics, both personal and professional, don't include only doing things that are popular. For me, to stay silent is to condone, and when I believe something is really wrong, I say so. That's all. Feel free to disagree - people have - or agree - again, others have. That's what a forum is for, surely, to discuss?

But surely also one can do this with professionalism and courtesy? One can disagree with a viewpoint without resorting to denigrating the other person? Because not all of the responders are.

I see no reason for resorting to sarcasm or personal attacks when points of view differ. Let's stay on the issue itself, yes? And courteous?
 

Marc

Captain Nice
Staff member
Admin
#20
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

By all means, continue the conversation, but I want to say a few things.
Wow! way to load the sarcasm on. Although you disagree with her stance I think you should respect her passion for doing the "right" thing.
I don't think that this comment was necessary. I see no significant sarcasm, but in any event joining in the fray is just as bad as being the first to be 'sarcastic'. It just keeps the tit-for-tat going. Sidney contacted the ISO folks, and, as I said, they do monitor the site from time to time. They have contacted me about content in the past, and although that was quite a while ago, I'm sure they will not hesitate to let me know if there is an issue.

In the future, I ask anyone with a copyright complaint to contact me (or a moderator) and let me handle it, rather than to bring it up in the forum thread leading to what will almost always be a contentious discussion. The only time that is permissible is when someone posts a copyrighted document in its entirety such as a standard, and even then it should be a moderator or me making any comments within the discussion thread. The moderators and I discuss potential copyright issues quite often. Sometimes the material is deleted, sometimes it's not, as every case is different. Regulars know we do try to keep things 'legal' here as is evidenced in many discussion threads where people ask for someone to post or send them copyrighted material and we respond that posting such material is not allowed.

If a person reports a suspected copyright violation to me, is passionate about a copyright issue and is not happy with my action (such as if I do not remove the content), the person can contact the copyright holder and advise them that their content has been copied here. I have no problem with that. But from that point on its in the hands of the holder of the copyright to contact me about the issue and its up to us to resolve the issue.

I understand Jane's concern, but Jane should have communicated her concern over copyright violation to me, either by using the "Report this Post" button
or by PM, or by email, and let me handle it, rather than derail the thread by changing the discussion to the thread content with respect to copyright.

Everyone should understand it is ultimately my 'problem' as to what people post in the forums. And as I wrote above, if the ISO folks are unhappy they will contact me. If they ask that the content be removed, I will do so usually within a few hours of receiving the complaint, just as I would do for any valid copyright complaint.

Also see Copyright Copyrighted Documents / Materials and Related Issues.
 
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