The Elsmar Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums More Free Files Forum Discussion Thread Post Attachments Listing Elsmar Cove Discussion Forums Main Page
Welcome to what was The Original Cayman Cove Forums!
This thread is carried over and continued in the Current Elsmar Cove Forums

Search the Elsmar Cove!

Wooden Line
This is a "Frozen" Legacy Forum.
Most links on this page do NOT work.
Discussions since 2001 are HERE

Owl Line
The New Elsmar Cove Forums   The New Elsmar Cove Forums
  QS-9000
  No Participation

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   No Participation
Sarah
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 4
From:Alabama
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 16 February 2000 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sarah   Click Here to Email Sarah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At this point I wish we had the same problem as the WRESTLING THE BULL BY THE HORNS message. We are trying to implement QS-9000 and as I mentioned before, we have a pretty good structure from our "mother" company to go by. In general people just are not taking this whole thing seriously. It's like pulling teeth to get the policies written. I wonder if there is any way to explain to our employees how important this program will be to us. Our major customers require their suppliers to be registered, yet it doesn't seem to be a concern. They think that if we just get it on paper then that's the end of it. No one thinks about "How will we pass the Audit?". Has anyone been in this situation? Any suggestions on how we can light a fire under this group of slackers?
thanks..

IP: Logged

Laura M
Forum Contributor

Posts: 299
From:Rochester, NY US
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 16 February 2000 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are you the management rep? How close are you to "upper management"? Get a timeline with responsibilities. Your upper management has to push it or it won't happen. Keep them informed, don't "hide" vulnerable areas because the mgmt of the area will "get mad at you." No manager wants their area to "be the one." Get a good preassessment, and use it to target the areas that you need help getting fixed. Don't know what kind of help you have, but you need to stay tough. If your org is anything like ours, the middle managers would paint a rosy picture to the big boss...you need to let her/him hear the truth. Good Luck.
We also used a "WE ARE READY" banner that we issued to departments that the internal auditors/implementation team deemed ready. That generated a little internal competition that made it fun.

IP: Logged

Sarah
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 4
From:Alabama
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 16 February 2000 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sarah   Click Here to Email Sarah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No I am not the management rep. We recently had some employee change overs in the QA department, so our Engineering department is now responsible for all documents and implementation involving QS-9000. I am just part of a department of 4 employees. Rather large company though. Pretty much everyone else just wants Engineering to handle this and let them know when it's done. Tends to be very challenging. We are trying very hard to get everyone involved. We are pretty close to the getting ugly point..

IP: Logged

Steven Sulkin
Forum Contributor

Posts: 75
From:Columbus, Ohio
Registered:

posted 16 February 2000 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steven Sulkin   Click Here to Email Steven Sulkin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would agree with Laura-
1-Get a full assessment and make sure the results dont get filtered on its way to management. I would HIGHLY recommend that you bring in a consultant that knows what they are talking about. I can recommend someone if you like. The reason why this is so important is that a consultant adds legitimacy to the report. The consultant will also have more experience than you, able to dig up more critical problems and explain them in terms management will appreciate. The consultant will also be a resource to you, able to provide some consultation a long the way rather than just identifying nonconformances.

2-Once you get management support, make sure ownership is clear- AND IT BETTER NOT BE YOU! There is no way your going to succeed if this is an Engineering project. Its a little tough to divy out the responsibility, but its important. We used element leaders. No matter what method you use, make sure the ownership eventually rests with a manager. If an area isnt compliant, someones butt is on the line and its at a high level.

My only suggestion on how to divy up is by element and department. Note that production ends up with much of the standard.

Anyone else?

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 16 February 2000 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Sulkin:

I would agree with Laura-
1-Get a full assessment and make sure the results dont get filtered on its way to management. I would HIGHLY recommend that you bring in a consultant that knows what they are talking about. I can recommend someone if you like.


I'll recommend me....

IP: Logged

Andy Bassett
Forum Contributor

Posts: 274
From:Donegal Ireland
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 18 February 2000 06:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andy Bassett   Click Here to Email Andy Bassett     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would have to agree that on this occassion a consultant is probably the best option.

The programme doesnt seem to be;
1. Wanted
2. Supported by management
3. Clearly led

An external party can possibly supply a clearer picture on the strengths and weaknesses of the programme, be seen as a 'neutral' party, and best of all act as a safe 'Whipping Boy' if the programme brings no benefits. (Marc - there has to be some perks with the job).

I should also mention that i have noticed a phenomena in some companies whereby the listening attention of the management is proportional to the salary of the person talking, ie were giving this guy a lot of money, we better listen to him.

------------------
Andy B

IP: Logged

Sam
Forum Contributor

Posts: 244
From:
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 18 February 2000 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sam   Click Here to Email Sam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sarah,Make life easy on yourself and your department. As a management rep./auditor you are not responsible for implementing the QSprocess. You (and your department) are only responsible for reporting to management the status.
You and/or your department cannot now or ever convince management that the QS process is neede. That must come from outside sources such as customers (or the loss thereof) and your parent company.
Consultants are effective ONLY if management is serious about the process.
I don't mean to sound too negative, but I have been through three qs9000 registrations and countless government audits over the past 35 years and this is just the way it is.

By the way, you didn't mention anything about training; if you haven't had a lead audtior course and PPAP,SPC,APQP,MSA,FMEA and the courses your customers offer, then you definitly need to hire a consultant.

IP: Logged

Laura M
Forum Contributor

Posts: 299
From:Rochester, NY US
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 18 February 2000 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sam, I think the problem is she is not the management representative - but is responsible. I was responsible for QS, but wouldn't take the job unless they named me management rep. The std. may not require the management rep implement, but that was the reality at my place. Just like the project engineers were responsible for coordinating and bringing a design to production...coordinating resources, eliminating roadblocks, ie implementing was my job. There was no way I was going to do the job and let my boss be the "figure head" management rep. After the system was in place for a couple years, the role changed a bit, but for the year before initial assessment, management definately thought I was responsible for implementing, not just reporting. My management definately did not like just a report of what's not done...I needed to have solutions. Since they usually didn't have a better idea (out of lack of knowledge of the requirements), they told me to go ahead with my idea...that's how I got the management support.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 18 February 2000 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not particularly pushing for anyone to hire a consultant. I do plug myself on my web site, but then again you might guess I would not want others to get a plug - I want any business generated.

To be honest, taken in context, a consultant would probably not do your company much good at this point. Your complaint is that you cannot get anyone interested and motivated (or few people). That is common and my experience is that a consultant cannot help unless the company is ready. The old saying of "...You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink..." comes to mind. I have had clients which simply weren't ready. No one does anything and as consultant you typically have only the power of informing the client that they're wasting time and money. A consultant typically does not have any authority to do anything.

I had a major client a couple of years ago where no one did anything. A couple of months went by without significant progress. I finally bypassed my contact (the Manager of Quality and Reliability) and spend 15 minutes with the Plant Manager. I went through my "I'm quitting" speech (no progress - we're both wasting our time and when you fail you'll blame me). That afternoon a major management meeting was help. The Plant Mgr made it very clear that the program was a priority. He told the group in no uncertain terms that this was their main priority. He also said: "I know it will be difficult - but - I will take the hit on product quality and on any production short fall during the project." Quite a speech. We set up special weekly meetings (on Thursday 11AM to 12.30PM) in our 'war room'. Chairs were removed for the meeting. Everyone had to stand, explain their progress on their systems and such and each person had 10 minutes to do so.

They and I worked quite hard for the next couple of months. The plant manger supplied food and drink around the clock in the 'war room' at no cost. Many of us were there late at night many times. The registration ended up successful and the facility came through the registration audit with only 1 (one) minor nonconformance. We were all very happy. They took me out that night and we had a rousing evening. They presented me with 'trophy' and really made me feel I was part of their 'family'. I still have very, very warm feelings for them.

Yes - consultants do cost a lot of money. However quite often I hear the refrain that "... a consultant came in and when s/he left there was almost nothing done..." The first question in my mind is 'Did management and the facility in general support the program and do what THEY were supposed to do?' We get blamed quite often for not accomplishing anything. Well, there are good consultants and bad consultants. The same goes for doctors, lawyers, plumbers - any profession. But even a 'good' consultant cannot help a company which is not interested. A doctor can't help a patient who will not take the prescribed medicine.

Time is your friend only if you don't have a 'required' date to register by. Some of my clients have the time and some don't. It sounds as if you have plenty of time. If your major customer came to you and said "You have 6 months to register and if you do not register in 6 months all of our business will be transferred to XYZ Company" a different priority would be placed on the program. Harley-Davidson only registered to ISO9000 after the German government sent them a letter with a cut-off date after which they would not allow the import of Harley-Davidson motor bikes. For several years upper management at Harley laughed at the ISO9000 'thing'. After the letter things became serious. Other countries were threatening as well. Kicking and screaming, they finally did succeed (by a hair's width - they were really not ready).

Good luck in your effort! Given enough time, any company should be able to reach a point where they can pass a registration audit.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 18 February 2000).]

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 18 February 2000 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Laura M:

Sam, I think the problem is she is not the management representative - but is responsible.


Responsibility without authority doesn't work very often.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 18 February 2000 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bassett:

I should also mention that i have noticed a phenomena in some companies whereby the listening attention of the management is proportional to the salary of the person talking, ie were giving this guy a lot of money, we better listen to him.


Some years ago I was told (by a consultant) that upper management doesn't listen much until you're charging a minimum of $100 an hour with a minimum of 1 day. I don't typically charge that much but the axium is true for the most part.

IP: Logged

Laura M
Forum Contributor

Posts: 299
From:Rochester, NY US
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 18 February 2000 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had a great team assembled, and we felt we knew what we were doing. Getting people to believe we knew what we were doing took a consultant. He came in about 4 times "validated" stuff that was done, and "highlighted" the stuff we were having trouble with. The he told the plant manager that if he listened to my team, we would do just fine. It was a little frustrating for us to watch someone else say the exact same things we were, and have everyone believe him, but we had a great repore with the consultant. It ended up being a great use of a consultant.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 18 February 2000 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I like to cite these 2 e-mails:

--> Subject: Results?
--> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:29:21 -0500
--> From: XXXX
--> To: Marc
-->
--> Well, as you anticipated, we "passed" with relatively few problems.
--> We had only 7 isolated non-conformities across 5 elements. Details
--> are in the attached file. The auditor said that this was a very
--> good result when compared to other registration audits he has
--> performed. All I can say is I am glad it was successful and Marty
--> said that she was happy to finally win! Once again, thanks for the
--> help. You're advice was extremely important. Especially important,
--> at least in my opinion, was your help in determining where we did
--> not need to document every last thing (by using training, etc.). I
--> think that without this input, we would have spent a lot more time
--> writing things that we did not need and wasted a lot of peoples'
--> time. We were able to get the audit done in a year while we are
--> achieving record sales and profits. Who can argue with that?

and

--> Subject: It's over!
--> Date: Fri., 23 Apr 1999 6:38:03 -0500
--> From: XXXX
--> To: Marc
-->
--> The audit just finished and everything went reasonably well. They
--> found several minor non-conformities and had several comments but there
--> was nothing that was really a major problem. There were no problems with
--> the cal lab itself (they did find some equipment in the machine shop
--> overdue for cal by three years) and went so far to say that he was
--> very impressed with the cal lab. He did not ask anything about
--> linearity or any of that sort of stuff. I think the biggest
--> challenge between now and the registration audit will be to maintain
--> momentum.
-->
--> Your assessment of us as being ready was on the mark. As I discussed
--> various items with the auditor, I made mention where your input was
--> used to develop our procedures. In all cases, he agreed with your
--> interpretations and made the comment that he felt that the money we
--> paid for you appeared to be well spent. Thanks!

I do not utilize a single implementation approach. Each client has different needs, expectations and resources. Many companies have concurrent improvement programs in-progress which tend to compete for time and resources. Some companies have a mandated completion date. While one company wants someone on-site throughout the implementation, another prefers a slower pace and prefers to do more of the work in-house. Some companies prefer that I provide Level I and Level II documentation while others prefer to do all documentation in house. Some companies need significant training whilst some companies need little or none. Because of the differences in companies, implementation project plans are tailored for each individual company. Plans are established and followed in Microsoft Project.

Sometimes a client needs a lot of help, sometimes very little. Problem is often a company hires a consultant, doesn't listen to him/her then complains when things donm't go well.

An initial evaluation through a document review (if documentation exists), a facility visit and a follow-up meeting with upper management, we establish a baseline plan as a proposal. This plan is negotiated and finalized and the project is begun.

IP: Logged

Dawn
Forum Contributor

Posts: 245
From:St. Marys, PA
Registered: Sep 98

posted 18 February 2000 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dawn   Click Here to Email Dawn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sarah,
Who is the Management Rep? Maybe it should be you. Maybe you should suggest it. I, too did not have top management totally sure of all the benefits. Within 5 months of certification, they are sold on it. I would highly reccomend you pick an area of the standard that your company is having alot of trouble with; losing money, several problems, etc. and start with the procedures for that area. Assure them that once the procedures are written they are to be imnplemented. They will see the results themselves. Try it and good luck!

IP: Logged

Sarah
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 4
From:Alabama
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 21 February 2000 08:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sarah   Click Here to Email Sarah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks so much to everyone. Your input has been very helpful. My boss has set up a mandatory meeting, every other week. So far this seems like motivation, cause the deal is, if they get caught up they are not required to come to every meeting, just those that apply to them. I have received 5 policies since Last monday. Incredible progress. So hopefully for a few days this strategy will work, atleast until we have all our policies, then it's on to procedures. I will keep a positive attitude though.
Yes I wish they would make me a mgt rep, however instead they are going to hire a new QA manager and dump most of this responsibility on him. I am still pushing to get a consultant once we get our Quality manual and procedures written. Would be nice to know if we are on the right track.
Thanks again to everyone who responded.

IP: Logged

Christian Lupo
Forum Contributor

Posts: 117
From:Auburn, NY
Registered:

posted 22 February 2000 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Christian Lupo   Click Here to Email Christian Lupo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These are a few of my favorite things about "The Cove". It is a place where (for the most part) you can validate what you are doing is correct when your own company wants to burn you in effigy, get support from other people in the same situation, and of course get great ideas.

I have had those "near death" experiences implementing ISO and QS, and just when it seems like management has turned the corner and embraced QS you tell them Dock audit are required and the naysayers come out again. Therefore quality professionals have to be thick skinned, be prepared for objections, and know how to overcome them while being patient. To lead the certification effort you have to be in Sales, constatly selling people the benefits of registration. Some tactics that I have used over the years:

1) NEVER talk bad about ISO or QS certification (either internalize it or go to the cove!), if you dont belive in it no one else will.
2) Tell all management (middle/upper)not to put ISo or QS down in front of employees. If the management does not believe in it the people will never follow. This isn't easy so I gave management a way out, I told them "If you dont belive in the QS requirements, please do not vocalize it in front of the employees. Come into my office shut the door and voice your concerns, and hopefully we can come to an understanding" This is not only good professionalism but it worked!
3) Use the internet to find your competitors that are/have implemented QS-9000, this is powerful and always gets peoples attention.
4) Quote statistics in regard to the number of QS registrations, it will give people a sense that they have to do it sooner or later. ISO and QS have become a "liscence to do business" in some industries.
5) hang this quote in your office it speaks volumes about change dynamics:

"It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage, than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all would profit by the presevation of the old institution and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new one" - Machiavelli

This quote has been framed in my office for years, people who have read it begin to understand what a quality professional has to deal with on a day to day basis.

IP: Logged

Karin
unregistered
posted 29 February 2000 02:40 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can really feel for people who are having trouble getting the ball rolling. I was designated mgmt rep & quality manager all in one day at one meeting. My boss's exact words were " are you ready to be the most hated person here?" (I now know he knew what he was talking about). My company has been in business 60 years and all I heard was "we have always done it this way"... gee they all forgot that I was working on that floor with them for 10 years... I have been working on us getting our QS registration for 1-1/2 years now.. we are 2 months away from registration (hopefully), and they have all lost their head of steam, and I am the one tying up a million loose ends.My boss just kind of stood back & let me kick butt (corrective action), with him being the "big stick" behind me. Its been terrible to say the least... I would venture to say that I have become the most hated person here, but only the managers hate me , the employees see that QS really does work & they give me far more input & assistance than the department managers..... so, keep at it it does get better.

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 29 February 2000 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"we have always done it this way"...

The Caretaker Syndrom. Just awful!! If an organization can not adapt, they will eventually end up disappearing. It is disappointing to hear of older firms that can not adapt, closing the doors, putting faithful employees in the streets looking for work. Is there a greater sin?

Regards,

Kevin

IP: Logged

Laura M
Forum Contributor

Posts: 299
From:Rochester, NY US
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 01 March 2000 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Karin...good luck with your audit. Sounds like my story. Managers think your being a "Pain in the you know what" but people on the floor appreciate someone "finally holding management accountable." At least that's what I heard. If the audit goes like mine, the managers will finally appreciate your efforts. Kind of an interesting dynamic, you have to "beat everyone up" to get ready, then on the day of the audit when you're 'defending' the quality system, they realize your value. My boss was supposed to carry the big stick too. Hopefully your is...I usually had to grab it and beat him over the head with it. Do let us know how you make out at your audit.

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 01 March 2000 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Laura,

Isn't it funny that the same managers who snubbed your efforts considered you their best friend on 'Audit Day'? Hopefully you took solace in that.

Kevin

IP: Logged

Laura M
Forum Contributor

Posts: 299
From:Rochester, NY US
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 01 March 2000 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yup, when they say "I guess you knew what you were talking about" or even an occasional "thank you" its all worth it. It was alot of personal pride for myself and the team too. Well, mostly all worth it. Did the bosses job for 3 years, then they gave someone else the job when he retired. Best thing that ever happened to me though. I quit and am having a blast being out on my own!!! And I've heard the person that got the job is being run ragged. Falls under the "be careful what you ask for" phrase.

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time (USA)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Hop to:

Contact Us | The Elsmar Cove Home Page

Your Input Into These Forums Is Appreciated! Thanks!


Main Site Search
Y'All Come Back Now, Ya Hear?
Powered by FreeBSD!Made With A Mac!Powered by Apache!