The Elsmar Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums More Free Files Forum Discussion Thread Post Attachments Listing Elsmar Cove Discussion Forums Main Page
Welcome to what was The Original Cayman Cove Forums!
This thread is carried over and continued in the Current Elsmar Cove Forums

Search the Elsmar Cove!

Wooden Line
This is a "Frozen" Legacy Forum.
Most links on this page do NOT work.
Discussions since 2001 are HERE

Owl Line
The New Elsmar Cove Forums   The New Elsmar Cove Forums
  Statistical Techniques and 6 Sigma
  six sigma for the beginer.

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   six sigma for the beginer.
WALLACE
Forum Contributor

Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 18 December 2000 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings to all six sigma folk.
I am in need of some leading and advice regarding getting started in gaining knowledge of six sigma, would you send me information that will get me started in my quest.
Best regards
Wallace.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 23 December 2000 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nothing to send you but we're all ears if you have any questions.

IP: Logged

Doug
unregistered
posted 02 January 2001 09:08 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Having begun The Six Sigma Way (Pande, Newman, Cavanagh), finding it generally, unreadable and the concept not particularly different from TQM, am remiss to give it much attention. Of course, the concept is great, though not understood by most in the workplace. My quandary is that I am sure management will want to start saying '6 sigma' all over the place at any moment and it will go the way of TQM after a lot of miss-training by some consultant. Obviously, a dummy, where can I get a 'Cliffs Notes' or '6 Sigma for Dummies?' My tediometer is just about overfull from bad starts with new concepts from mahogany row.

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 02 January 2001 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doug,

You have summed it up: there is no "Instant Pudding".

Regards,

Kevin

IP: Logged

WALLACE
Forum Contributor

Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 03 January 2001 03:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK Guys,
Where do I start on the six sigma trek of knowledge.
Wallace.

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 03 January 2001 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are many programs available, books, and other instructional aids. Browse the internet and you should find a host of potential items.

I am afraid that my position would be to discourage your trek until you have had a chance to explore the pros and cons. For me, the current six sigmas programs are littered with cons. When the tool is used properly, it can be of some use. However, this is not the case in general. Missing ingredient: profound knowledge.

Regards,

Kevin

IP: Logged

Indywine
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 3
From:Beech Grove, IN, USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 03 January 2001 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Indywine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think you'll find that much on the tools for six sigma...I didn't. I went through black belt training not knowing what to expect.

My opinion is black belt training is a graduate level statistics course, with two exceptions. First, the program offers a specific road map of the tools you should use and in what order they should be used. Second, the program teaches how to save money during the project, whereas a stats course would tell you to wait until the end to draw conclusions.

These are just my impressions, but I thought it might help. By the way, I am sold on the concept.

Jim

IP: Logged

trion
unregistered
posted 05 January 2001 05:04 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have just read the Six Sigma Way and thought it was a reasonably good introduction, albeit repetetive and longer than necessary. (One of the respondents to this thread spoke negatively of this book. i would be interested to know why, and what books are recommended and why).

If one believes this book (and probably other books on the subject), Six Sigma is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
How many firms have really embraced this and can point to concrete positive results?

Equally interesting to me would be any stories of firms that have tried and failed with Six sigma and to find out why.

Does this stuff really work? Is it too onerous to push through?

Any books that explain how to really use this approach? i.e. a case study or "paint by numbers" that takes you through the application of all activities in a Six Sigma project so that you could then know enough to start one at your own company without hiring expensive consultants?

TIA.

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 05 January 2001 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I took this from the book, The New Economics written by W. Edwards Deming in 1992. I invite the interested to read this book. At the top of page 36, it reads:

"Do not confuse coincidence with cause and effect (Gipsie Ranney). True: anyone could make a list of companys that are doing well, even though their management follows one or all of the above bad practices (WED earlier in the book covered his 14 points with examples of how things are done today with the Western Management Philosophy juxtaposed to how things should be; with anecdotes). Any of these companies might do much better were the management to learn a theory of managment.

If anyone were to study without theory such a company, i.e., without knowing what questions to ask, he would be tempted to copy the company, on the pretext that "they must be doing something right." To copy is to invite disaster." (end quote)

Many folks are jumping onto the Six Sigma bandwagon without knowledge of both sides, IMHO. In my earlier post, I suggested that further understanding was necessary prior to starting off on any trek. I believe that this is consistent with what Deming was saying in the above quote. Folks are seeing the apparent successful deployment of Six Sigma in GE and Allied Signal. It should be noted that the longterm effects of thier programs are unknown and their success may not entirely correlate with Six Sigma practices. This is fact. I am also aware of proper uses of the six sigma tool (not philosophy). A tool, any tool, properly used can yield positive results. A tool misused can cause disaster.

If GE is successful with this plan, then we will be too. Rubbish! Be careful, do your homework, and if you still so elect, try Six Sigma. It is up to you.

Regards,

Kevin

p.s. I have not read Dr. Harry's books on Six Sigma. I have read several of his articles and articles about him. I do not like what I see. I haven't plans to purchase either of his books in the future. Normally, I will read books on opposite opinions to mine to see if there is anything of merit in them. There very well might be something. Still, from all that I have still to read, this is a low item on a very long list of must read items.


[This message has been edited by Kevin Mader (edited 05 January 2001).]

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 07 January 2001 07:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also see https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000014.html

IP: Logged

barb butrym
Forum Contributor

Posts: 637
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 07 January 2001 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Six Sigma is a new way of presenting the old philosophies and is greatly over rated...not in what it can do when implemented correctly...but in that is a NEW REVELATION...And the black belt is such a sought after recognition, a NEW recognition...maybe I am missing something but it seemd to me its plain old common sense and good quality engineering...not a phenomena to be taken lightly for sure....but give us old guys some credit. A rose by any other name is still a rose

IP: Logged

WALLACE
Forum Contributor

Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07 January 2001 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WELL, WELL,
It seems that SIX SIGMA may be just for the initiated.
I have found that within the quality arena, the folks who are quality practitioners are the folks who are willing to give knowledge away for free to those who are genuinely interested, yet within the six sigma field it seems to be the opposite, please prove me wrong.
sincerely
Wallace

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 08 January 2001 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wallace,

Here is where you might want to look. I believe that the ASQ/Six Sigma Acadamy was initiated in November of 1999. I don't know if you are a member of the ASQ or not, but from the November 1999 issue on, you will find Six Sigma references, articles, and letters to the editor (QP Mailbag) that might give you some insight(QP=Quality Progress). Dr. Mikel Harry is featured in the November 1999 article "Cowboy Way" where the editor of Quality Progress paid a visit to his ranch where the Six Sigma Academy convenes (at about $35,000 a head).

Dr. Harry's philosophy is centered about Statistical Thinking as attached to selected Cost Reduction items as determined by Top Management and Finance. The goal is increased profitability and increased short term dividends for the stockholder. The focus of the program is on results, very consistent with the Western Management Philosophy of Command Control and Linear Thinking. Both of these concepts are quite dated and inefficient. The attachment of the Six Sigma philosophy to these concepts gives them added life, that in my opinion, leads us further from the mark. The mark? A harmonistic and holistic approach where all components in the System are given due consideration. The scope of Six Sigma is limited to a few relationships, primarily the investor/organization and perhaps the customer/organization. All relationships, as defined by the organization to be part of the System, are important. The aim of every organization should be to expand the System, refine the AIM, and create win-win for everyone.

Time to share the floor.

Regards,

Kevin

p.s. to consider Six Sigma a philosophy might be a stretch in my book. As Barb pointed out, most of what the Black Belt knows and does is the equivalent (perhaps not) to the knowledge of a QE. QEs know a bunch about Quality Tools and their application and are aware of Management philosophy, but is there a such thing as a QE philosophy?

IP: Logged

barb butrym
Forum Contributor

Posts: 637
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 11 January 2001 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had the opportunity to sit in on a Six Sigma session at one of my clients Monday. they hired a training firm, well known (and very expensive)to do the black belt thing. let me say that the trainer is excellent and has had much experience and their reputation is impeccable and not commercialized as some are.

Anyway.....I had to laugh as I listened to this great "new" stuff and looked at the slide on the screen and it was dated (revision) january 1991. What does that tell ya?????

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 11 January 2001 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It confirms the obvious. Nothing new about the technique, just how it is blend into the workings of an organization.

Regards,

Kevin

IP: Logged

WALLACE
Forum Contributor

Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 23 January 2001 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been considering purchasing the book by Thomas Pyzdek titled THE SIX SIGMA HANDBOOK.
The reason that I may buy this book is that it is highly recomended in the ASQ quality press publications catalog and, the fact that I have been given an opportunity of attending a green belt six sigma course with one of the big 3 auto manufacturers.
Would anyone care to coment on my potential purchase of this book and the fact that I have had no previous experience with sigma or general statistics.
Wallace.

IP: Logged

WALLACE
Forum Contributor

Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 27 January 2001 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would appreciate any url's that may give me the basics of understanding 6 sigma, and any downloadable files that will be usefull to me in my sigma quest.
Wallace.

IP: Logged

Rick Goodson
Forum Wizard

Posts: 102
From:Wuakesha, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 29 January 2001 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Goodson   Click Here to Email Rick Goodson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wallace,

Can not comment on Tom's new book however his past publications have been very good.

Take a look at http://www.isixsigma.com/. There is a lot of six sigma 'stuff' for someone new to the concept. this may be of some help. Also look at IQF website http://www.iqfnet.org/ which has some interesting comments and suggestions on six sigma.

IP: Logged

Alf Gulford
Forum Contributor

Posts: 60
From:Portland, OR
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 29 January 2001 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alf Gulford   Click Here to Email Alf Gulford     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kevin-
Thank you for the excellent explanation and evaluation.

If this analogy isn't too crude, the whole discussion reminds me of miracle devices to improve the gas mileage on your car (e.g.; first you clamp the cow magnets on the fuel line then you have your car tuned up. Mileage improvement is guaranteed).

Anyway, I'm way over my head here. I'm still trying to figure out how those darned cow magnets work.

Alf

IP: Logged

WALLACE
Forum Contributor

Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 31 March 2001 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Would the six sigma forum please comment on the book by Thomas Pyzdek titled, THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO SIX SIGMA, FOR GREEN BELTS BLACK BELTS AND MANAGERS AT ALL LEVELS.
I have been advised to purchase this book to give me an excellent foundational knowledge of 6 sigma.
Thanks in advance.
Wallace.

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 02 April 2001 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wallace,

I can't comment on the book, but in general, I have thought that Pyzdek's comments on statistics is very good (articles, papers).

The problem I am having (please keep in mind that as I have said, I have not read the book) is that he endorses the Six Sigma concept. A statistician with vast experience in SPC should recognize the folly of Six Sigma (IMHO). I do not know his motivation for writing this book.

Rick posted the iSixSigma forum above. They have a page with other SixSigma links. I would like to suggest that you give Arthur M. Schneiderman's paper "Question: when is six sigma not six sigma? Answer: when it's the six sigma metric!!" It is pretty informative.

Regards,

Kevin

IP: Logged

Sailesh
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 1
From:hyderabad, AP,India,
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04 April 2001 10:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sailesh   Click Here to Email Sailesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What are six sigma error levels ??

IP: Logged

Ron
unregistered
posted 06 April 2001 04:54 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
Having begun The Six Sigma Way (Pande, Newman, Cavanagh), finding it generally, unreadable and the concept not particularly different from TQM, am remiss to give it much attention. Of course, the concept is great, though not understood by most in the workplace. My quandary is that I am sure management will want to start saying '6 sigma' all over the place at any moment and it will go the way of TQM after a lot of miss-training by some consultant. Obviously, a dummy, where can I get a 'Cliffs Notes' or '6 Sigma for Dummies?' My tediometer is just about overfull from bad starts with new concepts from mahogany row.

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time (USA)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Hop to:

Contact Us | The Elsmar Cove Home Page

Your Input Into These Forums Is Appreciated! Thanks!


Main Site Search
Y'All Come Back Now, Ya Hear?
Powered by FreeBSD!Made With A Mac!Powered by Apache!