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Author Topic:   Consultants/Registrars
Dan De Yarman
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Posts: 67
From:Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 28 December 1999 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan De Yarman   Click Here to Email Dan De Yarman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is a slim chance that we might be leaving Perry Johnson, Inc. for consulting as well as Perry Johnson Registrars, Inc. for our audits. Can anyone recommend a consultant and/or registrar that can certify to QS-9000 and the Tooling and Equipment Supplement? It needs to be a company within the U.S. The closer, the better; we are located in Milwaukee(Glendale), WI. Thanks to anyone willing to help.

Dan

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mibusha
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From:Royal Oak, Michigan USA
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posted 28 December 1999 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mibusha   Click Here to Email mibusha     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dan,

I'm in the process of selecting a registrar and so far have narrowed it down to NSF (Ann Arbor, MI) and Entela (Grand rapids, MI). Both have about the longest history of TE experience in the business. Both have about the same number of certified TE auditors (6-7). I like the two-phase registration approach they have also.

I will choose one of them but would sure like a little more input from folks out there with relevent knowledge. From my interviews with them and what I can dig up, it's a dead heat (except for the price).

Don't blame you regarding PJ. I had terrible times with them. Would never recommend them, especially for TE!

Michael

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Marc Smith
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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 28 December 1999 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know about NSF. Entela has been a favourite of mine for a numbr of years.

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Dan De Yarman
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Posts: 67
From:Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 28 December 1999 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan De Yarman   Click Here to Email Dan De Yarman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mark, I noticed you recommended yourself in the FMEA topic I started. Could please you e-mail a schedule of your costs for consulting and registration to me? I would like to have some alternative solutions in hand if the you know what hits the fan.

There are around 100 employees in our company, and this is the only plant we have. If you have a price difference, then please quote that we have over 100 employees (if it matters). Please don't spend too much time on this since I don't know what the game plan is yet. This also goes for anyone else out there who is a consultant/auditor.

Does anyone else know anything about NSF?

If anyone else has any suggestions, please let me know. They are always appreciated.

Dan

[This message has been edited by Dan De Yarman (edited 28 December 1999).]

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Marc Smith
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posted 28 December 1999 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I recommend myself as often as possible... For obvious reasons.

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barb butrym
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posted 30 December 1999 08:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
go ......marc

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Tom Goetzinger
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Posts: 123
From:Milwaukee, WI USA
Registered: Mar 99

posted 03 January 2000 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Goetzinger   Click Here to Email Tom Goetzinger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I quoted both NSF and Entella, and ultimately chose NSF, and I am very happy with the decision. I found the audit team they provided to be very experienced and through, yet real world in their approach. I think that we got a good audit, and that they provided value for their fee. (Yes, we have been recommended for registration!)
I eliminated Entela early in the process, because they were the only ones to quote more days (2 1/2 extra) than the standard required; they were willing to reduce it to the required days when asked, but they did indicate that the initial quote was not an error. Frankly, I felt that if they thought 10 1/2 days were required, they should have stuck to it. They also quoted me an extra 1/2 day for each surveilance audit, which was not common with anyone else I quoted. As I was early in the process of quoting registrars, I eliminated them. I quoted quite a number of registrars, and then tried to disqualify the lowest bidders; NSF was competively priced.

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Tom Goetzinger

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Dan De Yarman
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From:Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 03 January 2000 04:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan De Yarman   Click Here to Email Dan De Yarman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Congratulations on being recommended for registration!

Tom, who was your consultant?

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Tom Goetzinger
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From:Milwaukee, WI USA
Registered: Mar 99

posted 05 January 2000 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Goetzinger   Click Here to Email Tom Goetzinger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I used and can highly recommend Bob Teska, of Teska and Associates, located in Racine, WI. He specializes in quality and productivity improvement. If you are interested in contacting him regarding a quotation for his services, he can be reached at 414-632-2742.

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Tom Goetzinger

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Marc Smith
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posted 05 January 2000 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you're looking for a consultant, I'd like to quote as well.

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barb butrym
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posted 07 January 2000 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would like to quote as registrar, representing URS, North American office.

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Dan De Yarman
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From:Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.
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posted 07 January 2000 10:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan De Yarman   Click Here to Email Dan De Yarman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As of right now, we are not actively seeking a new consultant or registrar. I'm just seeing what is out there in case we do decide to switch. I do, however, want to thank everyone for their input thus far. It has been most enlightening.

Barb, I searched the RAB's web site for TE Supplement approved registrars and URS is not listed. Are you able to shed any light on this situation?

Dan

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Marc Smith
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posted 08 January 2000 04:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dan De Yarman:
There is a slim chance that we might be leaving Perry Johnson, Inc. for consulting as well as Perry Johnson Registrars, Inc. for our audits.
Are you telling us that Perry Johnson is both your consultant and your registrar??

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barb butrym
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posted 09 January 2000 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They are UCAS, not RAB and their TE is new....

Marc....Perry J typically does both,out of separate offices (???).....a real neat racket...couple others out there too...but they are smart enough to at least use a different name !!!! lots of raised eyebrows.....and I hear lots of checking out the conflicts recently for at least one of the 'arrangements' local to the east coast.

AND>>.....Lots of small registrars up for sale as a result of some less than wonderful dealings that have recently come to light. Lots of shakeups in the works.

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Roger Eastin
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posted 10 January 2000 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Eastin   Click Here to Email Roger Eastin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What registrars are up for sale? What "dealings" would cause this? Conflict of interest? Big companies swallowing up the little ones? Is the "shake-up" coming from the RAB?

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Dan De Yarman
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Posts: 67
From:Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 10 January 2000 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan De Yarman   Click Here to Email Dan De Yarman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Barb, what or who is UCAS? I reflect Roger's question: What is the shake-up?

Marc, Barb is accurate in her description of how Perry Johnson, Inc. and Perry Johnson Registrars, Inc. work. PJI is the consulting and training firm, and PJR is the registrar. They use the same personnel, which has caused a little problem, but not too bad. They also make a claim that using both services will not guarantee that you get registered (I think they have too for legal reasons). They have to be very careful not to get involved in a conflict of interest.

Dan

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Randy
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From:Barstow, CA, USA
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posted 10 January 2000 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think PRO and IQuES work the same as PJI and PJR also.

Isn't it companies and not people that are restricted from doing both?

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Tom Goetzinger
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Posts: 123
From:Milwaukee, WI USA
Registered: Mar 99

posted 10 January 2000 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Goetzinger   Click Here to Email Tom Goetzinger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't realise that anyone other than the RAB had the authority to certify to do TE audits. Is that something new?

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Tom Goetzinger

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Marc Smith
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posted 10 January 2000 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randy:
Isn't it companies and not people that are restricted from doing both?
I believe it is both - if you are 'the consultant' you cannot be the registration auditor. Conflict of interest big time.

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Marc Smith
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posted 10 January 2000 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dan De Yarman:
PJThey use the same personnel, which has caused a little problem, but not too bad.
If that's not a serious conflict of interest I sure don't know what is. Oh well! So it goes.

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Dan De Yarman
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Posts: 67
From:Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 11 January 2000 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan De Yarman   Click Here to Email Dan De Yarman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc, what I meant by "they use the same personnel", is not that the same people who do your registration audit also consult for you. What I meant is, their is sometimes a scheduling conflict because (for instance) you want to talk with your consultant and you can't reach him because he is auditing another company at the time. Sometimes they would get back to you the same day; other times it would take close to a week to get a response.

When you are required to go from ground zero to QS-9000 TE in less than one year, every day counts.

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Marc Smith
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posted 11 January 2000 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah - I've been thru 'compressed' implementation projects.

We all have our 'threshold' for what we consider conflict of interest. Let's just say that the PJ setup (as they say in politics) gives the appearance of (at the least) conflict of interest.

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barb butrym
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posted 12 January 2000 07:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
by shake up, I mean investigations causing lots of movement/excitement ...by the governing bodies...RAB included. the complaints we all have been hearing have finially reached/nudged some of the powers that they should have reached/nudged long ago.

Some of the registrars that were ...lets say...on the edge of compliance, are bailing out before they get shut down. thats one reason for the many transfers/sales as well as good business sense, growth etc. that always comes into play.

PJ ....In my humble opinion.... would not be a choice i would recommend. I have seen their work, as consultants and as a registrar and i was not impressed to say the least. However I have no personal knowledge/evidence of any inappropriate behaviour..just a lousy taste in my mouth.

Lots of registrars use contract auditors that are consultants.....that isn't the issue at all. Its more the way they tie so closely together that gives a lousy perception......

Another company that shall remain nameless is worse...or maybe i got closer to them to see more.....actually heard at the registration audit (by the lead auditor) " this is a "XXX" company, let it go... i'll talk to them about it.." meaning the consulting firm (owned by the same guy as the registrar at one time...now owned by his partner supposedly, but rumor has it, it was silent). They have now changed hands for real so I won't say who they are, cause i think its all on the up and up again. But the abuse is out there.....and it is becoming clear where as RAB/UCAS/RVA and the others clean up their acts and get better at what they do.

Have to admit the PJ lead auditor course is/or at least was in 1994.... a high quality presentation...but they contract that out.....

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 12 January 2000).]

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barb butrym
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posted 12 January 2000 07:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AND as an aside to the less than compliant thing ....I had the opportunity to do some training at a company, registered for 3 years with a registrar ( recently sold...)

This companies business was servicing and installing heavy equipment/systems at the customer's sites......In the 3 years of audits the registrar had never audited that servicing or installation (their process!!!)at any client site, or even a desk audit...as a matter of fact, had never audited any dispatch or vechicle details, equipment used or records.....OR control of customer documents/blueprints. The company insisted that none of that was required (as relayed by the registrar) because those functions were performed by union tradesmen that had worked for them for years (but a walk through showed many young faces..certainly not senior employees). In addition there were no procedures/controls for any of the above where there should have been. (only a few of many noncompliances i witnessed...certainly not 'one off' instances.)

Their first audit with the new registrar is coming up soon......they will be quite surprised at the difference.....

Only one of many horror stories i could tell...so there you have it.....

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Dan De Yarman
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From:Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.
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posted 17 January 2000 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan De Yarman   Click Here to Email Dan De Yarman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom, I think that the AIAG or some other organization would have a list of the Accreditation bodies that can give registrars the authority to perform TE registration audits. I attempted to contact the AIAG today, but they were closed.

Anyone else have an idea?

Dan

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Roger Eastin
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posted 17 January 2000 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Eastin   Click Here to Email Roger Eastin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Check out the RAB website at www.rabnet.com. They should have the list of all registrars qualified to do TE audits.

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Tom Goetzinger
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From:Milwaukee, WI USA
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posted 17 January 2000 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Goetzinger   Click Here to Email Tom Goetzinger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Earlier Barb recommended URS as a registrar for TE, later indicating that they were UCAS, rather than RAB. I was under the impression that only the RAB could certify registrars for TE.
Basically, who is UCAS and do they have the authority to certify registrars for TE. If they do, the RAB site is no longer the definitive site on who is qualified for TE.

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