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Author Topic:   Unneccessary, Unwanted RAB Intervention
Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 12 July 1998 02:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From a list-serve thread:

>From: CHARLEY SCALIES
>Subject: Re:Internal Auditing/Scalies
>
>Let's see if I can't stir the cauldron a little....
>The RAB is proposing to "certify" internal auditors and internal auditor
>training courses. (Another racket: and not tennis, folks.) They propose, among
>other silliness, that the "certified courses" spend a great deal of time
>teaching the ISO9000 standards. Just what the wprld needs more deftless,
>inbred auditors. Wake up, McFly!. Internal audits are not the same as
>registration audits. Their focus is different, They do things for different
>reasons. They just happen to use many of the same techniques. If the RAB ever
>learns that lesson, they can apply to me for certification and accreditation.
>Boy! What did I have for breakfast today that made me so grouchy?
>Charley

>From: Bill Cox
> Subject: Internal Auditing/Scalies/Cox

I had responded to D. Arter's post:

>Without even looking at the [RAB] documents, I have an
>opinion (naturally)
>Companies do not need to pay RAB's fees or
>put up with their bureaucracy.
>This is a solution to a "problem" that does not exist.
>RAB should leave internal auditing up to the company.

Well, now I've read them, and I was right ;) Analogous to govt. meddling in business, where its "help" isn't needed or wanted.

Regards, Bill Cox TQM Consulting

------snippo--------

I posted this as I see the RAB and several other organizations (and a number of companies, for that matter) as using all that is going on as a Money Pot. And that is sad. It seems any more everyone and every task has to be 'certified' or otherwise 'controlled'. As a consultant, this is fine with me - training is good money. But - when does it stop? How far can they go in proscribing required training for individual companies?

In my opinion, Internal Auditing should be sub-contracted out. I admit that. I think it is the best way to achieve impartiality and, drawing from a pool of experienced auditors, I believe it is the best way to get serious, valid outputs. There are many other arguements. Some are given in the 'old' message forum threads.

I wonder what's next... By the way - I do in-house Internal Auditor training... If you're interested, shoot me an e-mail!
[Note: This message was edited by Marc Smith]

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 15 July 1998 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deleted 2014

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 16 July 1998 06:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     
--> From: marie harriman
--> Subject: Re: Audit Checklist/Scalies/Harriman
-->
--> I believe you've got it wrong Charlie.
--> A purpose of internal auditing is to confirm >compliance to the
--> standard.
--> In fact that's a main reason for auditors to use a >checklist.
-->
--> Well, I must admit, this caught my eye. I must have missed it the
--> first time! Gosh, since when is using a checklist so advoacated?
--> Just because the QS 9000 standard requires one, doesn't mean it is the
--> best idea on the planet!
-->
--> As an auditor for both QS and ISO, I find that having a checklist is
--> more of a hindrance than a help (although many new auditors do find it
--> helpful). I have used one for QS because it is requried, and the QS
--> standard is much more involved. However, I find that using a
--> checklist has two very negative effects to my auditing: 1) I audit
--> with blinders on, and feel the objective of the audit is to get to the
--> end of the checklist - I"m not a very good auditor in that case! 2)
--> It seriously limits my creativity in exploring just exactly how the
--> standard is properly employed for that business!
-->
--> So, isn't the purpose of auditing to really assess the health of the
--> quality system? Sure, we may use the ISO/QS/Baldridge as a model, but
--> it is not the entirety of the quality system structure! The internal
--> audit function is to assess the entire structure....and it's continued
--> sutiability for the goals of the company and the quality system!
-->
--> Just my two cents!
-->
--> Marie Harriman
--> IRCA Certified Lead Auditor/QS 9000 auditor.

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barb butrym
Forum Contributor

Posts: 637
From:South Central Massachusetts
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posted 16 July 1998 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Internal auditor training gives you the basics of "how to". Auditing is an art and there are rule and ethics, but basically as long as you follow the rules..your technique is personal.

Check lists are an aide..a prompt if you will. If you try to just use the list, and check it off as you wander around...then you are lousy audit material.

If there is a question on a check list, there are 20 more that will lead you to that answer..those are your technique.....then you have the evidence to answer the question on the list.

I agree internal audit training should be left to the ones that do it best. I do not agree that RAB needs to get involved. And I resent the RAB auditors that insist that auditors require special training and the audit program manager needs QSLA cert from a RAB course. A "nice if you can afford it" touch but certainly does not warrant a nonconformance. A pet peeve of mine...sorry. But a registrar over steps his bounds when he says that. However if the audit program is weak and the auditors need work, he can tick that evidence....if it shows to be an ineffective program. but don't go after the training...the standard is clear...must be trained....not how.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 08 August 1998 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This information comes from David Kildahl. I was told that at one time he was Communications Chair of the ASQ Quality Audit Division. However, this is in dispute. This message was posted in a list-serve July-August 1998.

Internal Auditor Certification

Interested in some more RAB Certifications to train and pay for? The RAB has released proposals for three new ways for them to make money - errr, I mean three new Certification initiatives:

"Requirements for the Accreditation of an Auditor Training Course"

"Requirements for the Accreditation of an Auditor Training Course -Administration QMS"

"Certification Criteria for Quality Management System InternalAuditors"

All three of these money makers, errrr - of these proposals... can be downloaded from (where else? [RAB=ASQC]):

The ASQ.

Go to the reference shelf, and access the RAB Certification entry. The documents are not directly acessable at this site, but may be downloaded in just a few moments.

MODERATOR NOTE:

Received and posted for clarification on 19990713:

As you and I discussed, please remove the words "Communications Chair of the ASQ Quality Audit Division" from the following text as posted under the topic, "Unneccessary, Unwanted RAB Intervention" on your web page. (I'm sorry, I couldn't find the posting number.) I have recently been asked if this was a QAD sponsored message, and it was not. Hopefully, by removing the reference to QAD, we will help avoid any future confusion (and phone calls to me!). These comments were Dave's, and should not have come across as being endorsed by the Quality Audit Division.

Thank you very much,

Wendy Finnerty,
Immediate Past Chair, Quality Audit Division

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 13 July 1999).]

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