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Author Topic:   Tools of the trade
Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

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posted 31 July 1998 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread has been damaged. The original topic has been lost.

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Don Winton
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posted 31 July 1998 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Don Winton   Click Here to Email Don Winton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very Good. Very good indeed. I wish I had thought of this. But, as such, I did not. I try to teach internal assessors to audit to the "letter of the law" and let the client determine the "intent of the law," so to speak. I do a "standard" NCF to record findings. I like your suggestion and may re-think my format. Thanks.

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barb butrym
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posted 01 August 1998 06:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
want a copy?

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barb butrym
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posted 01 August 1998 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am tired of my NCR and looking for new ideas......butthen I suppose if it works why fix it....this isn't ncr...its more of a communication tool, you still need some sort of ncr.

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Marc Smith
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posted 01 August 1998 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shoot me a copy and let me know if I can post it.

You might want to check out A Nonconformance Database Example

For company audits, one of the databases I use is: An Audit Findings Report

And there's a planning form for internal audits: Internal Audit Planning Form

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Marc Smith
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posted 01 August 1998 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, barb... You said:

"...butthen I suppose if it works why fix it...".

That's not a very progressive attitude... And what about Continuous Improvement?

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Don Winton
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posted 01 August 1998 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Don Winton   Click Here to Email Don Winton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, I would like a copy. Thanks.

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Marc Smith
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posted 05 August 1998 07:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread was damaged when the server hardware failure occured. Does anyone have a copy of the original post?

And barb - what were (are) you going to send?

By the way - I have asked my ISP to supply me with backup files from last Friday which should have the earlier posts. I'll put them up when (hopefully not IF) my ISP sends me the files.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith.]

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barb butrym
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posted 05 August 1998 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sending a status/summary matrix similar to your planning thing but covers the audit results as well.

Sorry for the delay, have been out straight and working from 2 computers and a lap top, so I need to get on the one that has the matrix so I can save/send

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barb butrym
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posted 10 August 1998 11:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
finialy got the summary/status sheet off to you marc...feel free to do with it what you will.

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Marc Smith
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posted 11 August 1998 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So barb - I can have my way with it?

Barb's form is in the pdf_files directory in pdf and the format barb sent it in - RTF (rich text format).

Barb's Internal Audit Form - The pdf Version

The file name is QF317-2.pdf (the rtf is QF317-2.rtf).

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith.]

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barb butrym
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posted 11 August 1998 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
we all need to have our way with something (someone?)...LOL

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barb butrym
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posted 15 August 1998 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any comments on QF317-2....its been a working doc for me for quite some time now (years)....looking for ways to improve it....

Come on guys ...fess up....what other tools are out there?

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Marc Smith
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posted 11 March 2000 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any ideas from the rest of you folks?

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Andy Bassett
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From:Donegal Ireland
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posted 12 March 2000 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andy Bassett   Click Here to Email Andy Bassett     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When i read threads like this i realise how hopelessly off base i am with the whole ISO issue, maybe my experience paradigm is too narrow at the moment and i shouldnt comment.....but what the hell.

When i look at the documents on offer i can appreciate that they are ISO compliant to 'n'th degree, but i would be scared of using them with my customers. I can just imagine their eyes glazing over and sinking back in their chairs with boredom. I go so far as never to mention the word audit, i call them 'improvement reviews' and usue the standard 3 column meeting sheet that most companies have, that lists;
A. What has to be done (Areas for Improvement).
B. Who has to do it
C. When it should be done.

I think it is not unreasonable to ask a busy engineering group to sit down, review how they are going about their job, hopefully against their procedure, and look for improvements. This smacks of 'positive' continuous improvement.

The alternative is to have an AUDIT (This word already conjures up negative images), and inform them that they have a DEVIATION against ELEMENT 4.5, DOCUMENTATION CONTROL which will need a CORRECTIVE ACTION FORM to be filled out which will be entered into the CORRECTIVE ACTION DATABASE etc etc

Filling out a form that looks like something a Tax office rejected because it was too complicated is not going to help you at all.

Regards

------------------
Andy B

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barb butrym
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posted 12 March 2000 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey there Andy......I know you don't mean to sound so negative, or do you? LOL

Forms can provide a service, they can be memory joggers to the busy individual, who wants to remain compliant, and not take days of writing to get there...ergo...fill in the blank. Forms are typically created out of the need to write something down (repetitive?),,,and are typically meant to serve the creator...not the rest of the world. Any form posted in the forum isn't meant to be for someone else to use as is..its an idea that someone had, that may or may not be adaptable for use by someone else...but works well for the creator's system. Anyone who thinks they can grab someone's thoughts on a scenario and make them autofit into another has some painful surprises coming. These are examples to be drawn from. Forms typically are used by analytical minds, they are a tool to an end. Other types of minds find them boring and useless...these people need to have their own tools that work for them....there are many out there.

Which forms do you find so offensive, and why? lets see if we can create some new tools for the tool box? (or is it outside of the tool box?)We all can benefit from that

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Andy Bassett
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From:Donegal Ireland
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posted 13 March 2000 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andy Bassett   Click Here to Email Andy Bassett     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Barb

Yes, i guess you are right, i was a little negative. I do use various things from this forum, including forms information and advise, it's just sometimes i am amazed that ISO ever gets accepted and implemented when it is approached in such a dry bureacratic manner.

I guess the approach should always suit the culture and nature of the company. (Otherwise someone would start selling standard manuals and putting consultants out of work).

I stand by my original comments that Audits should be presented in a different light, and concentrated on process or interdepartmental improvements, as opposed to simply relating everything to the standard, this is the best way i can think of, of guaranteeing input and involvement from the employees.

If you think in this light then it makes sense to keep any associated documentation (Deviation Reports etc)as simple as possible to avoid over-bureacratising and devaluing the whole process.

I guess in future i will use my own approach if i feel that the company is looking for genuine process improvement,(or has an ISO acceptance problem) but if for any reason my client wants a visibly watertight ISO system, (To obtain new business from a customer for example Ill eat some humble pie and come and beg for a look at your documentation

Regards

------------------
Andy B

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barb butrym
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posted 13 March 2000 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ya know alot is "culture" related as well....
HAve done work in the UK and find that what works there does not often work here....and visa vi.... Actually what I saw there..(a large consulting firm, not to be mentioned here....was actually doing cookie cutter installations and charging a very high rate for nothing. I guess its everywhere.....) didn't differ much from what you are suggesting.....forms do not infer a lack of committment.....or a "just do it for the paper" attitude..... You need to be more open to the alternative ways to approach things...I have audited all over the world, and seen many 'alternatives" that at first sight would blow you away, but an auditor cannot allow that to happen. You need to let them prove it works for them, or provide evidence that it doesn't. Have you ever been to the states? If you get the chance, I would like to have you visit a registerd company or 2 that have alternative ideas, you would find it very interesting I am sure. I think you would see that the pace is faster here, and necessitates some innovations that perhaps would be strange indeed to the Uk/Irish cultures. I say that in an envious mode....I love your country and often wish the business at hand would allow me to walk in your shoes. The people there tend to be more condusive to the ISO culture, and the way it all falls together, here we( our middle management)tend to fight it. This poses a challenge to the consultant, The worker and the owner want it for what ever reason, but the MM needs to constantly be reassured that the bottom line/throughput won't be affected.

WHEN IN FACT IT DAMN WELL SHOULD BE IF YOU DO IT RIGHT !!!!!

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 13 March 2000).]

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