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  ISO 10011 Dead - 19011 Evolves

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Author Topic:   ISO 10011 Dead - 19011 Evolves
Marc Smith
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posted 23 October 1999 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Subject: RE: Guidelines for auditing quality systems /Ramirez/Arter
From: Dennis Arter

Reinaldo Ramirez wrote earlier:
>Does some person in the list know something about the ISO
>10011:2000 as mentioned in ISO/CD2 9001:2000 Bibliography page 27?
>

ISO 10011 is a dead document, which means it will not be maintained. The Technical Management Board of ISO directed the quality folks (TC 176) and environmental folks (TC 207) to come up with a common standard for auditing both management systems. That writing project has started. The combined standard will bear the number 19011.

Last month, the TC 176 (quality) folks met in San Francisco, where the various drafts were worked. The output of that effort was a proposed Committee Draft (CD). Before it can be released for comment and ballot, it must also be acceptable by the environmental folks (TC 207). That should happen in a few months. (These two very large committees are working closely, but they are not exactly in "synch.")

>If a copy of the document ISO/TC 176/SC 3/WG 7 N94 Date: 1998-02-
>27 Working Draft: WG 7-WD 3 of ISO 10011.

All of these older draft documents are considerably out of date. They should not be used. That is not to say that the older documents are bad, however. Much of the previous work from the effort to update 10011 has found a new home in 19011. Those of us on the 19011 writing committees do not yet have the CD yet.

Dennis R. Arter

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 22 December 1999).]

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Roger Eastin
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posted 07 December 1999 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Eastin   Click Here to Email Roger Eastin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, now that you mention it, I do remember reading that post. I guess, because the reference to it is not in the same vein as my previous post, I forgot about it. (Also, this reference is to ISO19011, not ISO19001 which is the one that I saw at the ISO website.) Still, for the potential impact of this standard, I was surprised that its implementation date was so soon and yet, not much has been said about it. I wonder if it will replace ISO9000 and ISO14000 or will just give companies an option to "do it all at once", if they so decide(leaving ISO9000 and ISO14000 intact)? Does anyone have a copy of the Committee Draft of ISO19001? If so, how does it read? (I think I'm going to see if I can get the draft of this one.)

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Marc Smith
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posted 08 December 1999 07:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Subject: FYI: USA Standards Group Meeting /Arter
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:08:52 -0600
From: ISO Standards Discussion

From: Dennis Arter

Report on US TAG Standards Group Meetings

The US Standards Group on Quality, Environment, Dependability and Statistics (QEDS) met in Crystal City, Virginia, the week of November 15, 1999. While many issues were discussed and work was conducted by all working groups, there were several issues surrounding the Draft International Standard (DIS) of ISO 9000:2000 series that bear reporting.

(The pre-publication editions of the DISs (available for translation) were provided to the members of Task Group (TG) 18 for their use in starting the development of a US position. These copies were retrieved after the meeting.)

The issues of concern to the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG), which formulates the US position on documents developed within ISO Technical Committee (TC) 176, are as follows:

A. Non-conformance

Although the requirements for non-conforming products (clause 4.13 in the 1994 edition) had remained virtually unchanged in the new version through the second committee draft (CD 2), the pre- publication version of the DIS being worked on by the International Organization of Standardization (ISO) now has some changes. These changes were apparently made to make the document easier to use in the service sector. This raises issues with manufacturing oriented people since some of the older requirements have been dropped and there are now no directions for the disposition of non-conforming products.

B. Documented procedures

Throughout the DIS, there has been a significant and intentional reduction in the number of places which have specific requirements for documented procedures within the clauses. Although there is some general discussion in Section 4, some participants indicated that the DIS may go too far in eliminating requirements for procedures.

C. Document vs. Record

There are lingering questions concerning the use of documentation terms. In specific, the definitions of "record" and "document" needs to be clarified. This is not considered a significant concern.

ISO 19011, the integrated standard for internal auditing of quality and environmental management systems, is planned for release as a DIS in the September-October 2000 time frame to correspond with the release of ISO 9001:2000 as an FDIS. This will be one of the four core documents contained in the ISO 9000 family. This is down from dozens of documents to ISO 9000, ISO 9001, ISO 9004 and ISO 19011. There is also one international document that is frequently included with these four documents: ISO 10012 on measuring equipment.

Dennis R. Arter

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 22 December 1999).]

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Marc Smith
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posted 22 December 1999 05:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also see: https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000123.html

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 29 March 2001).]

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Richard K
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From:The Pas, MB, Canada
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posted 21 January 2000 01:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard K     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Having had a chance to read the CD1 of 19011, I can say that there appears to be nothing earth-shattering. It seems to be simply a rewrite of 10011-1 to remove references to quality and make it more generic. Then in the training/qualifications section (the old 10011-2) it talks about the training and qualifications necessary to audit to each particular standard.

Richard

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Marc Smith
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posted 21 January 2000 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Richard! Glad to se you stop by! Where did you order the CD1 from?

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Luis Santos
Lurker (<10 Posts)

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From:PORTUGAL
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posted 23 January 2000 04:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Luis Santos   Click Here to Email Luis Santos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Message for Richard or anyone else who may have knowledge on this subject:
Did the ISO/CD1 19011 get released ? If so, can it be obtained somewhere on
the internet?
Or if anyone can send me a copy by e-mail I very aprecciate. (lmmsantos@mail.telepac.pt)

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Richard K
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From:The Pas, MB, Canada
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posted 24 January 2000 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard K     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oops. Sorry - I neglected to mention that I don't actually have a copy. I merely had an opportunity to read a copy in the possession of a member of the ISO working group. As far as I know, the CD has not been published yet.

Richard

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rrramirez
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Posts: 23
From:Caracas, Venezuela
Registered: May 99

posted 01 March 2000 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rrramirez   Click Here to Email rrramirez     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wish to share with all in the list, the response from the ISO regarding the status of the ISO/CD1 190011:

Subject: Re: ISO 19011
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 14:29:27 +0100
From:frost@iso.ch (Frost Roger)
Organization: ISO
To:rrramirez@cantv.net
CC:mbinfo@iso.ch
References:1

Reinaldo,

There is no secret. The document is under development and a publicly available draft will be published in November-December.

Best regards,
Roger Frost

rrramirez@cantv.net wrote:

> Why is so secret for the public the developing you«re doing in the ISO
> 19011?
> Where can get a basic information as to be "aware"?
> I have been auditor for more than 20 year and it is the first time I can get any information regarding my job.
> In my country it«s really impossible to get this information.
> Regards,
> Reinaldo Ramirez
> Caracas, Venezuela

------------------
Senior Member ASQ (1986)

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Marc Smith
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posted 26 March 2000 12:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some Related Links:

ISO 9001:2000 DIS?

ISO 10011 Dead - 19011 Evolves

CD1-ISO 19011

Outsourcing Internal Audits

ISO 19011 and the Definition of Observation

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 29 March 2001).]

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Marc Smith
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posted 17 December 2000 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone heard anything latly about 19011?

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Paul Stefanson
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posted 27 December 2000 01:21 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My sources tell me to attend the 8th ISO 9000 Conference and the ISO 14000 Conference in Reno March 19 - 22, 2001. Shared issues like ... the ISO 19011 auditing standard will be examined in joint sessions March 20 & 21.

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