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Author Topic:   Auditor Certification II
Marc Smith
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posted 29 March 2001 04:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Continued from https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000120.html

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WALLACE
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From:Ontario, Canada.
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posted 29 March 2001 05:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I read with interest Marc implied the fact that auditors don't seem to be experienced in the field that they often are auditing, I agree yet, many auditees are very interested in having a fresh objective perspective on their existing QMS and this can only be accomplished in many cases by having a consultant or independent auditor in to assess current practices and processess.
I recently was given a contract to audit a research company who manufactured explosive and drug sniffing devices for the military and the FAA, I went into that audit knowing very little about their business at all yet, I gave this organization a very unique assessment based upon my lack of knowledge of drug and explosive research, the outcome was extremely succesful regarding my assessment and report to management.
This may be an exception to the rule of knowledge based auditing in any given field yet, I firmly believe that my lack of knowledge in this case gave the auditee the benefit of having confidence in my detached position.
Wallace.

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Marc Smith
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posted 29 March 2001 05:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
->There's now a global shortage of QS and TS assessors who
->have re-qualified.

Yup - I have called QS-9000 a scam since 1996. My opinion has not changed. But then again, I see all politics and religion as power scams. My opinions are obviously jaded.

If I was you, however, being a qualified assessor, I would be happy in that it should push up your ability to charge more for your services!

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Marc Smith
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posted 29 March 2001 06:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have also consulted in fields where I do not have direct work experience. Yes - it can give a company a 'unique' view.

My complaint is that in the long run, if you have no experience in the field you are auditing it makes it difficult to understand what's going on. If I audit a chemical manufacturer and I have a background in that industry I will argueably be better positioned to understand what's going on and thus be able to get the audit done and get on with the show. Much time is spent in trying to educate auditors in how a business runs.

Using your arguement one can also argue that if your business is in trouble it would be well served by getting someone from outside the field to help and in fact I interviewed at Coors about 3 years ago as director of quality and their stated reasoning was just that - to get someone who was not part of their industry so that there would be no paradigms - thus they would get 'fresh' ideas.

I personally would want someone to help who had a background (and thus experience) in my business if I wanted advice. One may not see auditing in this light, but my experience has been that many, many auditors have a paradigm that is hard to break. I remember one college professor who quit to become a QS auditor. He tore up a client on their document numbering system - which is really none of his business.

It is different in the role of a consultant to some degree because you have time to communicate with and understand the company and typically have a more open mind. None the less, I believe that even in a consultant role experience in the field gives a great edge.

To say you gave them a unique audit is, I am sure, correct. I'll go you one step further. I worked in hospitals for years and didn't get into business, per se, until I was in my late 30's. I said then that my lack of experience gave me a unique view of business. I argued that I had no paradigms set as happens through years of being in a business environment. As I get older I realize how much experience in a field gives me. Just as college gives one information to call on throughout his/her life, experience in a field gives one the same. Companies in trouble rarely call in a copmany or person to help based upon their lack of experience in their business. Auditors become 'consultants' every time they write up an 'opportunity for improvement'. I have seen an awful lot of auditor write-ups based on the auditor's expectations based upon experience from another field.

But as I said, as far as all this pertains to registrar audits, I believe experience in the field shortens the audit and reduces problems with interpretations. I would prefer that if my bank is being audited that it be audited by someone with a lot of experience in the banking field. You might go in and give a bank a 'unique' audit, but I want someone who knows what to be looking for and where to look. I would want someone who knows and understands industry standards and what 'should' be there. It may be that in the Firestone case if the auditors were experienced in tyre making they would have recognized what was happening (I do not know that the auditors were not from the tyre industry, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were not).

In addition, since I'm rambling, I will comment that I believe the same auditor should be doing all the audits. Or at least be present. Too many of my clients have a common complaint - they get a different auditor every year or every 6 months and each time the 'new' auditor disallows something the previous auditor 'allowed' - essentially the interpretations issue. When I helped Motorola semiconductor in QS, we learned after the 2nd audit - we REQUIRED LRQA to supply a 'master' auditor to attend every audit. This meant that only one facility could be audited at any one time. But -the interpretations issue was so distorted during the first 2 audits that it was rediculous. In Seranban one auditor 'allowed' a certain interpretation while in Ireland the auditor 'disallowed' the same. In part, the problem was exacerbated by the lack of auditors who had a background in semiconductor manufacturing.

->I was wondering if anyone could send me some past papers
->or whatever so that I can at least get an idea as to what
->sort of questions will be asked.

This won't help much as it is all about interpretations.

->Is someone making big bucks out of exam re-sits at $1000+
->a time ??

Duh. And this, too, is all about interpretations. And, of course, yes -- money...

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WALLACE
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From:Ontario, Canada.
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posted 29 March 2001 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc,
The research company audit that I performed presented me with a unique challenge regarding previous auditor interpretations of the ISO standard, I came across an interpretation by an auditor that I had to seek out the reason for this certain slant upon his understanding of the standard, I contacted him during my audit and asked him to explain his decision and interpretation, I was given his reasoning and after we had discussed thie issue at hand, he agreed to change his original interpretation, I found this approach to be very useful, the auditor faxed me a revision to his original issue which at the time of his first audit at that site became a contender for avery major NC.
Has anyone else used this approach?
Wallace.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

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posted 29 March 2001 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not saying what you did was not beneficial. But from what you say there were 2 failure modes on the part of the company.

1. Failure to have someone in-house who understood the standard with resect to their company and their business - my first warning to every new client is I can't do this for you in the long run. If a company has to hire an someone like me to assess whether or not an interpretation is appropriate their in-house expert needs some lessons.

2. Failure to 'fight' for their interpretation.

Yes - I have been retained to address auditor interpretations. I have never actually called an auditor to speak with him/her about their interpretation. However I have had many face-to-face 'jousts' with auditors and I have only 'lost' a couple of times.

This site is based upon those experiences. It is why the 'logo' is "Helping you through the QS/ISO 9000 fog and intent blurr". Interpretations have been an issue from the get go.

QS was what kicked me into actually setting up a web site, but the site and forums you are now on are the direct result of ass___e auditor interpretations. This is one reason I have very little regard for auditors in general any more. Many have axes to grind or paradigms which prevent them from 'understanding'. They don't believe in looking at the intent - they have very narrow paradigms. Note that when I say 'they' I mean many, not all, auditors.

In fact, I worked with an insurance company last year in an ISO 9001-2000 implementation. I have never before worked in, nor consulted for, an insurance company. The auditors who did the audit had never before worked in, or audited, an insurance company (one auditor was an ass___e and the other was very good). In addition, the RAB had a witness there as the registrar was due for its yearly witness audit and this one was chosen. The RAB witness also had never worked in the the insurance business nor had he ever been in an audit of an insurance company. (See FWSC)

I guess I do not see it as a 'unique' challange to go in and assess interpretations made by registrar auditors in an industry I have never worked in because I've done it many times in the last 10 years. That does not mean I cannot do a better and faster job if it's an industry I have had direct work experience in. Or, in cases like the insurance company last year, where I have implementation experience.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 29 March 2001).]

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WALLACE
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posted 31 March 2001 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc,
The two failure modes that you mentioned are indeed so common that, I have found them to be evident in almost every audit that I have attended to, there were some serious staff shortages at the time of my contracted assessment of the QMS, I did notice that the research company has since decided to remain registered to the 1994 ISO 9001 standard and to refrain from being pre-assessed for conformance to the present ISO9001 standard.
Modern business practices that put presure upon those employed to maintain and improve the QMS and also to perform many other tasks that conflict with the necessities of the QMS,I believe is one of the causes of internal failure to understand the standard of compliance and therefore results in the lack of fighting for the standard interpretation when it comes to facing the registrarar auditors.
Wallace.

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outoftown
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From:Cary, NC, USA
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posted 03 April 2001 02:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outoftown   Click Here to Email outoftown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Forgive me for butting in this conversation thread between Marc and Wallace, but I'd just like to comment on the many valid points brought forth so far. I've been a QS auditor since 1994 and admittedly I may not have been an expert on some of the first systems I been asked to audit. My background is production and quality in electronics manuf. and work as a process engineer in semiconductor research. However the SIC system US-based registrars used and the 2 digit fields of expertise the Europeans use both have created problems in determining what expertise is needed. Would you believe that my previous work as an auto mechanic and motorcycle mechanic had no bearing on my QS qualifications? I have replaced another QS auditor's waterpump and brakes, repaired her car stereo, etc., yet all she knew about cars was how to pump gas. I'm not trying to be sexist here, but she was considered more qualified to audit automotive suppliers than I because she once worked as a bookkeeper for Ford. Another situation I asked a former Ford engineer to audit PPAP and this person admitted they had never seen one before. Assessors have to start somewhere. What it comes down to...do they add value to the audit? A good Audit Leader would determine where a auditor's strengths lie. I try to send the more experienced auditor in the industry on the process path. Auditors can use some of their background in similar industries until they understand their client's business...much the same way consultants work. Although the QS recert and TS exams have disqualified many auditors, the purpose was to eliminate the bad auditors. We that remain hope that clients benefit from a better grade of auditor and would be willing to pay slightly more for the better value-added audits they will be getting.
-Just my $0.02 worth.

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outoftown
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posted 03 April 2001 03:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outoftown   Click Here to Email outoftown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry but I just finished reading the earlier thread about LA credentials. I am aware of a trainer who was stripped of his credentials by telling his class they were "Certified Lead Assessors" after having passed the 5 day course. In reality, from there, you pay your $250 for a journal and become a QS-PA (provisional auditor). RAB relaxed the requirements two years ago and now you can become a QS-A without benefit of witness audits, but RAB has to approve your journal. Although QS-LA credentials still require witness audits, RAB reduced the number you need last year. FWIW, registrars don't want to be in the business of qualifying all auditors, but it was a catch-22...you can't audit without credentials and you can't get credentials without auditing. The RAB knows they created a brick wall between QS-PA and QS-A so they tried to do something about it with the QS-A certification changes. Once you get to QS-A, you may then billable by registrars for QS work after passing the QS exam (this limitation to not use QS-PA auditors on QS audits is spelled out in Appendix B of QS-9000). Having a QS-A will attract more attention to your resume than QS-PA or CQA. The previous registrar I worked for spent an average of $27,000 to train auditors to get them to QS-A level. It usually took another year after that to bring them up to Lead Assessor. Many registrars without elaborate training programs would rather get someone already certified. Note to Carl- your thoughts on having Lead Assessor credentials will naturally upset some people. What do you think about the president of Mexico; Vincente Fox saying he has a Harvard MBA, when he only took one executive course taught by a Harvard Business Professor while he was at Coke? This is exactly the kind of thing you are saying. BTW, I am recruiting auditors for QS work, but I don't want adversarial type individuals and I don't have a training budget. I already have about 8 fulltime EMS auditors to use, but we don't have the business yet to keep them all busy. All the EMS auditors have at least a master's degree and two have PhDs. If anyone reading this has QS-LA or QS-A with extensive automotive experience and you are interested in a full-time automotive auditing position, please email me. Your location and liklihood of passing the QS and TS exams will weigh heavily in any hiring decision.

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outoftown
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posted 03 April 2001 03:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outoftown   Click Here to Email outoftown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With some registrars, it was a scam. Hopefully the Automotive OEMs will keep them out of TS auditing. They've already taken steps to do so.

-A QS & TS recertified auditor.


quote:
Originally posted by Marc Smith:
->There's now a global shortage of QS and TS assessors who
->have re-qualified.

Yup - I have called QS-9000 a scam since 1996. My opinion has not changed. But then again, I see all politics and religion as power scams. My opinions are obviously jaded.

If I was you, however, being a qualified assessor, I would be happy in that it should push up your ability to charge more for your services!


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D.Scott
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posted 03 April 2001 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for D.Scott   Click Here to Email D.Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a comment for Outoftown - I wasn't aware that the world stopped at the door of the RAB. Does that mean that if you are an RvA auditor you are not certified? Have you now stripped the ASQ of the right to issue certificates to auditors? Is it possible that some auditors have no intention of working for a registrar? If a certificate, with a certification number and a statement of certification is issued to anyone for anything, how can you say it is not valid? To compare Carl's claim to the president of Mexico is irrelevant unless you are saying that the President was given a certificate saying he was awarded an MBA, in which case he DID have an MBA from Harvard. You are taking the approach of a typical narrow minded QS auditor. If Carl said he was an RAB certified lead assessor, your point is correct. He made no such claim. Get a life.
BTW, making a claim that because you were a mechanic gives you any insight into the automotive industry is about as ignorant as thinking that I am going to be happy about paying more because you passed a mandatory upgrade. Just my humble opinion.
Dave

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Marc Smith
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posted 03 April 2001 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wallace:

I agree with your comments.

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Carl
unregistered
posted 03 April 2001 03:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do I dare?

Guys and Gals,

I want to make this point PERFECTLY clear. My claim that I am a Lead Assessor ends right there. I am very forthright with all employers and contacts. My resume' states when, where and what course I took. I have never, nor will I ever claim anything more than my certificate states. It is signed by the Director of the RAB recognized Body and has a unique registration number. Am I supposed to put it in a drawer and forget it because I do not work for a Registrar or because I didn't fork up an additional couple of hundred bucks for a journal? I don't think so. Do I have audit experience? SURE!, TONS of it in several industries. The certificate is a liscence to drive, not proof that I made a podium finish at Indy. Proving I am a GOOD auditor or knowledgeable about ISO (which IS my forte') QS (which is NOT my Forte'), EMS (which I would not touch because I am not experienced)or a specific industry comes during the interview process and subsequent audits. Only a damn fool would hire someone just because they had a certification of any type. You know what they call the guy who took his medical boards and got the lowest passing grade? DOCTOR, that's what. There are some excellent comments above and I can understand that some people may be upset about my claim. Most of them are probably consultants concerned with losing business. All that I can say is, I did not make the rules. I am only trying to live by them and use the system to the fullest advantage that I can. Just because the RAB does not have all the holes sewn shut is not my fault. I also agree with the thread above. Who died and left the RAB in charge? They are not the only game in town. I still have not seen any comment surrounding the fact that I can take the ASQ CQA exam without ever having completed an audit, or a class if I use the primer, and if I pass no one seems to have a problem with saying I am a "Certified Quality Auditor"?

Note to out-of-town: Do you have a problem with the President of Mexico saying that he has a certificate for his executive course, or is he not allowed to mention his education at all? Let me make sure I have this right: You have 8 full time EMS auditors and they all have Masters degrees or better, but you don't have business enough to keep them busy? You also are recruiting QS auditors and don't have a training budget but want them to pass the QS and TS exams? I guess you DON'T want adverserial types! Why not let a couple of those PhD's go and use the money for training to pass the QS and TS exams?

Good luck.

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lou hannigan
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From:wayne nj usa
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posted 04 April 2001 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lou hannigan   Click Here to Email lou hannigan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Carl,

What happened? You initially claimed yourself as a "Certified" Lead Assessor. Second thoughts on claiming truth?

Does the certificate from your five day class state that you are certified as a Lead Assessor? Out of curiosity, why do you claim the title if it apparently should not make any difference regarding your effectiveness?

I suppose it is the norm for everyone to exaggerate his credentials; however it does the quality profession a disservice to misuse the word "certified."

Be careful when and if you use the claim of Certified Lead Auditor to help win a contract - it smells of deception.

Lou

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Carl
unregistered
posted 05 April 2001 08:15 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lou,

Let me check.............Yup, still certified! (The ink finally Dried where I wrote CERTIFIED) I'm still waiting for the RAB police to come bust down my door like jack-booted Storm troopers and take me to Auditors Prison.

Yes Lou, My Certificate does state that I am Certified as a lead Assessor. Here, let me say it louder MY CERTIFICATE SAYS "THIS IS TO CERTIFY". Did you hear me that time Lou? I have given a copy of it to each employer I have worked for or consulted and I have never been challenged. As a matter of fact, you are the first since 1994.

No Lou, it is not the "norm" to exaggerate ones credentials. If you are doing it, I suggest you stop. They have a term for that, it is called unethical and I would not do it. Neither should anyone else.

I have and will use the term Certified Lead Assessor whenever I feel it is to my advantage.

I have about had it with your suggestion that I am doing something wrong.

You are a bit hung up on titles there Lou.

What does your business card say? Lou Hannigan, Certified Dusgruntled Consultant?

Get a life.

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ISO GUY
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posted 05 April 2001 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Carl, just curious who did you take the Lead Assessor course through? I have also passed the Lead Assessor course, my cert. says, "This is to Certify that XXXXX has successfuly completed....... the ISO 9000 Lead Auditor course" does this make me a Certified Lead Auditor I don't think so, what would make me a Lead Assessor would be completing the required amount of audits usually with a XXX Certified Lead Assessor. This is the way I interperate what the Accreditation Board has written. I don't feel that just because I passed a 36 hour course that I am a certified Lead Assessor. If I was an employeer and someone made the claim that they were a Certified Lead Auditor, I would want to see more than the Cert. from the course provider. What you may ask, well I am in the process of completing audits with a RAB, RVA Certified Lead auditor, I have to complete many more audits before I can attain the level of Certified Lead Auditor. Just out of curosity have you ever applied to a Registrar before? Maybe you should call one and see what they require. Just my thoughts and opinions. Let me know what you think.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 05 April 2001 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let's keep pointed personal attacks to a minimum, folks, please. We can all express our views without adding "...and your momma wears combat boots..." or other stupid personal darts.

Thanks.

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Sam
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posted 05 April 2001 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sam   Click Here to Email Sam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This discussion has caused me to pull out my certificate and review it;

" Stat-A-Matrix Institute hereby certifies that Sam has successfully completed a 40 hour training . . . . . ."

IMO, it's not so much what it says as what I do with it.
What it does for me is to put me on a level playing field with the auditor.

After all as the man said; Discussion is an exchange of knowledge, Argument is an exchange of ignorance.

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Carl
unregistered
posted 05 April 2001 09:21 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO GUY,

Mine says "This is to certify that XXXXX has successfully completed a Lead Assesseor EXAMINATION" Normally an examination is given to indicate some level of proficiency. You can interperet anything you want, just as we see in auditing, if you ask 3 auditors to audit, you will likely get three different results. My interpretation is that if I have a certificate, stating that it is to certify that I passed an examination, signed by the Director of the organization (Which IS RAB registered) and has a registration number on it, I am well within my right to say I am certified, or registered for that matter. If I am not certified, why does the certificate use the term "certify"? If I am not registered, why is there a registration number? It was made very clear at the course that we could make no claim that we were "Provisional Auditors" and I have never made such a claim.

I agree with you, if I were an employer, I would want to see more than a certificate also. As a matter of fact, previous employers have asked for more and I have provided it. They have never questioned my certificate though. Actually if I were an employer I would state that I wanted a PA if that is what I was looking for, and I would want to see proof of that AND MORE.

I have never applied to a Registrar before because that is not what I do for a living. I also think a lot of them are milking the cow for everything they can get.

Some of the RAB,ASQ,RVA blah,blah blah, is good, a lot of it is a scam. There is no way I am going to pay sums of cash to the RAB or anyone else just because they decide to change the rules to fit their pocketbook.

Out of respect for the forum, this is the last response I will write to you.

Good luck in your quest to become "certified"

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Carl
unregistered
posted 05 April 2001 10:25 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISOGUY,

I meant to state out of respect for the forum, this is the last response I will write concerning this topic.

It just came out wrong.

I appreciate your, and everyone elses opinion even if I do not agree.

Thanks to all.
Carl-

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barb butrym
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posted 05 April 2001 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All registered courses have to have their certificates approved by the registering body.....and I have never seen one that does not state "this is to certify that yadayadayada...." as above,,,never have I seen one that says "xxxx is certified"

Further...the registartion number is the course registration number. There is also a number internal to the course provider for tracking purposes if you move forward with RAB/RvA/IRCA etc. That is the course offering number and includes a student #

I know this 'cause I provide registered lead assessor training. A registered QSLA from IRCA.

You can say you are a lead assessor, you cannot claim to be registered with anyone because you passed a course/test.

CAUTION to all you prospective clients..Ask for who they are registered with, the number....and then look it up on the web site to verify they are listed and current... IF It is important to you to hire a registered auditor.....most people/companies will be satisfied with the training and experience provided

And guess what...we offer 2 resits at for a charge of about $100 each, just to cover costs.

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 05 April 2001).]

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WALLACE
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From:Ontario, Canada.
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posted 05 April 2001 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I understand that many of the contributors to this forum are from an auditing background, they may come from a strictly registrar based arena whilst, many come from a consultancy and are solely dedicated to offering their services as self employed assessors of QMS, I beleive that both of these areas of knowledge give value to the auditing arena, I have never worked for a registrar and I most likely will refrain from doing so, this puts me on the consultancy side of the fence. the gap that is evident is that, consultancies are not generally regulated and this may cause some assessors to abuse their position regarding making claims that are not ethical (I can't think of any right now), the way that we are expressing ourselves within this forum is giving us all an insight into the divisions that are evident between registrar assessors and consultancy auditors regarding certifications, audit time that has been loged and that fact that many seem to beleive that being a registrar assessor is a lofty position, let's face it we all need each other in this game (profession) of quality auditing, I have said it before and I will say it again, often the most decorated assessors and auditors may seem to be the least proficient and dedicated to this progressive profession. The fact that RAB, IRCA and others are in control of the certification and registration of potential registration assessors is completely acceptable, if indeed potential registration assessors geuinely accept this, OTOH consultancy auditors of quality, I beleive need to look at alternatives to the registrar offered certifications, if indeed they don't intend to use their certifications to move back and forth from consultancies to registrars which is very common, I have completed a registrar offered ISO9001 5 day course, recieved a certificate of attendance and moved on knowing that I won't use it within the registrar arena, this may look good to a potential employer or client yet, I firmly beleive that as we have two sides of the fence being very evident, assessors and auditors may wish to look at the posibility of gaining a certification that would satisfy a governing body of control, one for registration assessors and the other for consultancy auditors (I have used the terms assessor and auditor for clarity between professions).
Thoughts and feed back would be appreciated.
Wallace.

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Carl
unregistered
posted 05 April 2001 02:57 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to rescind my previous statement, but I cannot resist.

According to the criteria Barb laid out, Anyone who passed the CQA exam cannot claim to be a Certified Quality Auditor.

As I stated in an earlier part of the thread:

I still have not seen any comment surrounding the fact that I can take the ASQ CQA exam without ever having completed an audit, or a class if I use the primer, and if I pass no one seems to have a problem with saying I am a "Certified Quality Auditor"?

It is a one day exam, you get a similar certificate, you don't even need to take a course. Come on! Who are you trying to kid? It is all about the money!

Sorry Ladies and Gents, many of you are playing a double standard game that I ain't playin'. I am sticking to the facts. I didn't tell them what to put on my cert. I am just repeating it.

Carl

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ISO GUY
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Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 05 April 2001 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You know what really gets me, is that the AS won't let me take the CQA cause according to them I have not been in the field long enough!(Going on 6 years) Whats up with that? Like all perfessionals I want to add as many credintals to my name, and learn from as many sources possible.

Ok everyone get outside and enjoy the nice sunshine while it lasts!!!

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outoftown
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From:Cary, NC, USA
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posted 06 April 2001 02:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outoftown   Click Here to Email outoftown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO guy, if you can claim some education, either two or four year degree in a technical field, ASQ may forego some of the experience requirements. Ducking around all the barbs thrown around in the previous messages, many of you don't know about the misrepresentation that early providers of lead assessor courses were accused of when attendees either did not become aware until they were in the middle of the course or even after leaving the course about what audit credentials the course gave them. Many people were disappointed after the $1500 they paid that did not find themselves qualified to move into an auditing job immediately. There are still some course providers today that don't readily explain that the course will not make you "certified" until your money has been pocketed. ASQ has already disciplined some trainers for putting the phrase "certified lead auditor" on the certs issued. Carl, you have nothing to worry about since you did not put it on the cert yourself, but your trainer is at fault for not explaining it better to you. ASQ also pointedly states when saying you are a CQA, CQE or Certified Quality Manager, that it be preceded by the term ASQ, again to avoid misrepresentation. My point about Vincente Fox's MBA is he said he had one. When reporters investigated after he won the presidency, it turned out to be the one exec course. In Mexico, credentials carry more weight than here in the US and US credentials are extremely valued because corruption there may buy a certificate. I've dealt with it because I have to audit qualifications in Mexico.

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outoftown
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From:Cary, NC, USA
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posted 06 April 2001 03:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outoftown   Click Here to Email outoftown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Moving on to Wallace's comments. RAB rules prevent registrars from consulting. If individual auditors consult, it can't be with the same clients that are getting registered. Some registrars don't play by these rules and if they are unaccredited, they can make their own rules. What controls are there to ensure your auditor is qualified...the RAB, IATCA, IRCA all audit the auditors. My training and references are checked annually by the RAB calling on clients I've audited, randomly picked from my journal. They also require registrars to have quality manuals, procedures, training, internal audits, customer complaint systems, etc. (Sound familiar?) and to ensure the auditors are consistent, they send RAB representatives to tag along with the auditor on audits. This is why most companies would rather deal with a registrar that is audited by one or more of the accreditation bodies like the RAB, RvA, UKAS, etc. because the chances of getting a better auditor are there. Even then, many auditors who have have the proper certifications are still around doing lousy audits. That's why Ford, GM and Daimler-Chrysler have set their own standards for auditor qualifications set much higher than the accreditation bodies. This is what is really causing the auditor shortage, because the pass rate for QS recertification that all automotive auditors must take is only around 50%. These are experienced, QS-certified auditors that are failing the exam. The pass rate for TS-16949 (the new automotive standard) is even lower. They also are charging thousands of dollars to take the exam, so many independent auditors are not taking it and registrars are being selective about who goes to take the exam. This is why the auditor shortage exists. If you want to get into consulting, you don't need any certifications or credentials. They may help you get the job, but networking and referrals is much more important for a regular consulting income. It's just like a college degree, after the first job, nobody cares about your degree...they just want to know what you did last. All these comments are my humble opinion based on 22 years work in manufacturing and quality, with the last 8 years as a quality auditor.

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Randy
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From:Barstow, CA, USA
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posted 06 April 2001 09:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It appears that there are a few personalities breaking out here. Passion for ones position is a good thing, but it can cloud objectivity. The term "certified" appears to take a beating any time it is brought up. I think in many cases certified should mean any combination of all the factors related to the delivery of a product by an individual that can be verified for accuracy of content, total objectivity, educational background and overall experience. If an individual can get other folks to attest to your abilities to do something, then by Webster's definition you are certified. The individual could also make claims as to ability and experience and self-certify I guess.

Does any of this make sense?

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Al Dyer
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From:Lapeer, MI USA
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posted 06 April 2001 09:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geeeeeeeeze,

Ever heard the term "kicking a dead horse"

ASD...

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WALLACE
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Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
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posted 07 April 2001 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Al, I don't think that we are kicking a dead horse as you say, the issues that have been discussed within these threads of auditing certification seems to be getting the most hits these days at the forum, I say keep it going as, I believe that we are clarifying some misconseptions regarding the old art of auditing and all of our experiences that are being expressed are giving other forum users insight into the very structured (yeah right) world of auditors.
To further comment regarding the lack of internal QMS knowledge and fighting for organizational interpretation of a quality standard when being assessed by a registrar, I have actually found that when the quality manager is absent from any part of an assessment, the ability of executive management steping in and attempting to sve face regarding even understanding the QMS standard of compliance and internal intent is in many cases embarassing to witness.
Wallace.

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Al Dyer
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From:Lapeer, MI USA
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posted 07 April 2001 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wallace,

I agree, the reason for my post (you noticed the smiley I very seldom use) was to try to break some of the tension in the thread. I love the give and take and think it is benefical.

Keep up the good work!

ASD..

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Al Dyer
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Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
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posted 07 April 2001 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WALLACE:
Al, ......To further comment regarding the lack of internal QMS knowledge and fighting for organizational interpretation of a quality standard when being assessed by a registrar, I have actually found that when the quality manager is absent from any part of an assessment, the ability of executive management steping in and attempting to sve face regarding even understanding the QMS standard of compliance and internal intent is in many cases embarassing to witness.
Wallace.

Wallace,

It has been my experience that there should be a Management Representative position in a company that answers to upper management and does not work for any of the other "Managers" in the organization.

It is their job to work with registrars and auditors to answer the minute detail questions and direct them to the proper functions that perform the actual duties.

I have witnessed quality managers that could not recite their own name let alone know how the entire structure fits in to the boundries of an ISO/QS/TS system. (yes, that is after training)

Upper management should know the policies and business plans.

Department managers should know the procedures and related instructions to carry out their function.

The management representative should know the document structure and the relationship between differing functions in the organization so they can direct internal and external auditors/assessors/customers to a place where their questions can be answered.

By the way, the last persons I would lead the auditor to would be upper management. (i.e. Owner/President/V.P. etc...)

They think they know the system but tend to ramble on and on and on and on and eventually put their feet in their mouths and open new doors for the auditor.

Word quota used up!

ASD...

[This message has been edited by Al Dyer (edited 07 April 2001).]

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Al Dyer
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Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
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posted 07 April 2001 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc,

Is it time to start Auditor Certification III?

ASD...

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WALLACE
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Posts: 46
From:Ontario, Canada.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07 April 2001 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WALLACE   Click Here to Email WALLACE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Al,
I agree with your observations.
Marc, Auditor certification III? No I believe we've got a little more to comment on within #II but, I think a nerve has been pinched with this subject, I hope it turns out to be constuctive and not destructive. I sincerely hope that the registrars and organizations such as ASQ are looking at the cove (they must be) with extreme interest.
Wallace.

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Marc Smith
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Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 07 April 2001 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Al Dyer:
Marc,

Is it time to start Auditor Certification III?

ASD...


You're the forum moderator. Copy the url from this thread. Start a new thread. Title the subject appropriately (Auditor Certification III). Paste the url from this thread with something appropriate like "Continued from ...." preceeding it. Submit the new post. Open the new thread you just started. Copy the url. Open the old thread and put in something like "Continued on...." and paste the url of the new thread. Submit the post. Now - close the old thread.

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Al Dyer
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Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
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posted 07 April 2001 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc,

Thanks for the instructions, I'm still somewhat new as how to do perform certain activities here.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 07 April 2001 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now you have an instruction! Consider this OJT.

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 08 April 2001 04:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Continued On:
https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000154.html

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