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Author Topic:   scam?
darwinbb
Forum Contributor

Posts: 10
From:ON, Canada
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06 April 2001 03:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for darwinbb   Click Here to Email darwinbb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc

In one or two statements please explain why you called QS-9000 a scam? My apologies here, I have not followed the arguments on this matter? Thanks

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12 April 2001 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwinbb:
Marc

In one or two statements please explain why you called QS-9000 a scam? My apologies here, I have not followed the arguments on this matter? Thanks


While Marc and I disagree on certain subjects, I agree that all of these standards/specifications/requirements etc... are dubious at the least.

While the companies dictate that we must do this, and this, and this.... they are creating self fullfilling prophecies that will lead to failure.

What is QS?

The automotive bastardization of a simple set of busines practices (ISO)

They can't even agree between themselves on how to interpret what they have mandated!

Ford accepts QS and TS but says we must be QOS.

Chrysler says we have to use their PSO, not APQP.

G.M. doesn't know what they require, at least when you talk with their SQA's.

Let's look at the basics:

If supplier #1 can give a customer a QS certificate and quote a price of $0.35 per part ... then supplier #2 (not QS registered/certified) gives the customer a price of $0.22 per part, who gets the business?

I think they would go with supplier #2.

Fair? NO
Expected? Yes

Me jaded? Yes

ASD...

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 12 April 2001 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bottom line is QS was/is a cost and responsibilty shift through a 'common' customer requirement. Al's post pretty well describes it.

However, you can thank QS for the existence of this site. I started it when QS was young and interpretations were a nightmare. QS made ISO 9K look like a walk-in-the-park comparatively. It's bit more 'stable' after 6 years, but 16949 is going to replace it. This site was and remains a place where people can share experiences and expertise. And now and again abrasive political comments, eh Al?

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 13 April 2001 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Sounds good to me!

If we want to talk abrasive I'll introduce you to my wife, who was none to happy when I forgot our 19th anniversary last year!

(I still can't spell the word correctly and yes 20 is coming up soon. Circled on my calander)

ASD...

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Jim Evans
Forum Contributor

Posts: 45
From:Union City, MI, USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 09 May 2001 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Evans   Click Here to Email Jim Evans     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can sympathize Al. Last year (June) because of an upcoming audit I missed voting in an election for the first time in my life. Granted it was a local school election. But one of the things that I took great pride in was that since I was first eligible to vote (1972), I had never missed an election of any kind (primaries, local, school, state or national). I still get sick when I think about it.

Fortuanately my kids have all picked up on importance of voting. While attending college (about 120 miles from home) my daughter forgot to pick up her absentee ballot. She obtained permission from her professors to miss class then drove home, voted and drove back to school in time to attend an afternoon class.

Back to your point, the alphabet soup of ISO/QS/TE/Q1/QOS drives us all a little nuts. I guess we would all be less cynical if we thought we were actually adding value by doing some of these things.

Jim Evans

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gfwito
unregistered
posted 09 May 2001 06:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMHO QS is not about improving anything, but feeding the corporate egos at Chrysler, Ford, and GM. There are career SQE's there who have had one promotion in 30 years (i.e. deadwood), but will gladly rant and rave for hours on how suppliers don't have a clue how to make quality parts. These same "experts" have never even worked in a plant. Most would not be able to perform competently at an entry level job at an automotive supplier. (Yes, I know I need assertiveness training)

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09 May 2001 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
gfwito:

I agree and disagree with some of your statements.

1: Although the various systems, standards, and specifications can be cumbersome I believe that if we follow the structure it is a benefit to the company. (comply, not certify $$$)

2: I've been through the wars starting before TFE and I ask you to think about it this way:

Maybe the B3 figured that their SQA's and other "quality" personnel were lacking in the required skills to objectively monitor a quality system and decided to outsource the process through the initiation of QS-9000. (pass the buck)

3: I have never heard of, or participated in the B3 actually reviewing (i.e. audit) the systems of a registered company.

4: What I do see is the B3 contracting the work of SQA's and reducing their workforce because of the acceptance of QS-9000 and TS-16949 as the next step.

MHO

ASD...

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