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  ISO 9001/4:2000
  Role of ISO9004:2000

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Author Topic:   Role of ISO9004:2000
Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 08 April 1999 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Subject: ISO Committee Draft 2 9001:2000 RE14
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:24:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Greg Gogates
To: iso25@quality.org

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:33:49 EDT
From: Pkh333@aol.com
To: iso25@fasor.com
Subject: ISO Committee Draft 2 9001:2000

If you read the Foreword to the CD2 of ISO 9004:2000, it tells you that it "gives guidance on all aspects of a quality management system, to improve an organization's overall performance, while ISO 9001 addresses the quality management system requirements for an organization to demonstrate its capability to meet customer requirements. ISO 9004 IS NOT INTENDED AS GUIDANCE FOR COMPLIANCE WITH ISO 9001." (Capitalization by me)

Patricia Hartman
Member, US TAG to TC 176
pkh333@aol.com

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John C
Forum Contributor

Posts: 134
From:Cork City, Ireland
Registered: Nov 98

posted 16 April 1999 08:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for John C   Click Here to Email John C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice to get some good news this bright Friday morning; ăISO 9004:2000 is not intended as guidance for compliance with ISO 9001ä. It just shows the value of reading the small print. - Thanks to Patricia and to Mark for the information.
In ISO 9002:1994 , Annex A lists guidelines and carries the word (informative) in brackets. That, for me, meant that I didnât have to buy them - we are registered to a standard, not to a guideline. Now, someone in ISO has spelled it out for us (should I say someone in a TC?) and that removes any concerns I had about possible disagreements with registrars, or having my future clients wondering why I know nothing about something so "obviously essential to their future".
I've expressed my opposition often enough to guidelines and guidelines to guidelines and interpretation in any form, so I don't want to get into all that again. Let's just say that it's nice to see it in print that the guideline is just an expensive training document.
(I made a list of guidelines that appeared relevant and costed them with NSAI. I've forgotten the figure but I believe it was on the wrong side of $400 - we'd do a lot better at the local library.)
John C

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Don Winton
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Posts: 498
From:Tullahoma, TN
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posted 16 April 1999 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Don Winton   Click Here to Email Don Winton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
In ISO 9002:1994 , Annex A lists guidelines and carries the word (informative) in brackets...

Agreed, John. I have always seen these document as guidance, also. It gets under my skin when there are those that try to cite a guidance document as a compliance requirement. Guidance means just that, guidance. It is nice that the new standard spells this out, assuming it stays intact in the final document.

Regards,
Don

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Lassitude
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Posts: 89
From:
Registered: Jun 99

posted 29 June 1999 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lassitude   Click Here to Email Lassitude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The kind QS folks have succeeded pretty well in taking former 'guidance' documents like the APQP and MSA manuals and made them auditable to a large degree. I look to more of the same in the iso world.

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Roger Eastin
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From:Greenville, SC
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posted 29 June 1999 04:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Eastin   Click Here to Email Roger Eastin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lassitude - I am not sure I follow you on this one. Do you mean you expect ISO auditors to audit to the ISO9004 document eventually?

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 07 April 2000 05:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The MSA and APQP 'requirements' are, like QS-9000, customer requirements. I don't see this as an issue with ISO9004.

How about you folks? What's the role of ISO9004:2000?

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Qualiman
Forum Contributor

Posts: 35
From:Cuautitlan , Mexico
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 08 April 2000 01:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Qualiman   Click Here to Email Qualiman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am trying to understand that big amount of info in the consistent pair.
Could be that being the 9001 the Requirements, the role of 9004 be a help to improve or going deeper in the application of 9001 ?. If you see , the 8 TQM principles are in the very first part of 9004 and it appears to be a copy (enhanced/zoomed) of 9001.
On the other hand I can't understand why the SC2 titled 9004 as "Guidance for performance improvement", mentioned in several pages the term "guidance", however in the third paragraph of 1 Scope establishes" This International Standard is not a guideline for implementing ISO 9001, and is not intended for certification, regulatory or contractual use"....?? Hence IT IS a GUIDE.Don't you agree ?
I would like to know another points of view from you folks

Nice to be here

Qualiman

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wajnberg
Forum Contributor

Posts: 15
From:Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 08 April 2000 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wajnberg   Click Here to Email wajnberg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Everything that I«ve been reading so far leaves no no doubt that 9004:2000 has been written to give guidance on the improvement of a quality management system to improve the overall performance of an organization. It is not a guideline for implementing ISO 9001:2000 and is not intended for certification or contractual use. This is very clear to me.

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Alan Cotterell
Forum Contributor

Posts: 120
From:Benalla, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 08 April 2000 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alan Cotterell   Click Here to Email Alan Cotterell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe ISO9004 is intended for guidance only, however this does not mean it can be disregarded. It is my perception that with the previous version of ISO9001, there has been a continuance of a compliance approach to management 'what do we have to do?'. This means a minimalist approach or even just paying 'lip service' to ISO9000 in many cases.
I believe the intention of ISO9000 is that a documented management system should be in place to suit the organisation's needs (not primarily to facilitate certification), this system should be subject to 'continual improvement'.
If you need an objective, I suggest it should be to move up the 'maturity model of organisations', to the optimised level.
THE MATURITY MODEL OF ORGANISATIONS:
Initial (chaos)
Managed
Planned
Integrated
Optimised

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