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  ISO 9001/4:2000
  Flow Charts REQUIRED?

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Author Topic:   Flow Charts REQUIRED?
Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 11 December 2000 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Original Post by: Alf Gulford
Posted ON 11 December 2000 05:18 PM
POSTED IN: https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000056.html ŹŹŹŹ ŹŹ ŹŹ
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While we're on the subject of flowcharts---

The new Quality magazine just came in with an article on flowcharting in which they're saying that ISO9001:2000 requires that business processes be flowcharted. I can understand it being desireable, but required?

I'm still working off the DIS version and don't see the word 'flowchart' anywhere. What's the deal here? Are they actually saying that in their opinion flowcharts are the only reasonable way to go, or are they saying that I've got to go back through a ton of procedures and flowchart them? That's a problem in a company culture that gets cross-eyed when a flowchart has more that six elements in it.

I appreciate any information that might help me understand the actual requirements.

Thanks.

Alf

*********************

Any comments, folks?

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

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posted 11 December 2000 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Alf -- what article / page?

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David Mullins
Forum Contributor

Posts: 248
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11 December 2000 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It doesn't say flowcharts, and I'm very ambivalent about flow charts, however ....

The standard says:
(4.1.a) ID the processes.
(4.1.b) determine the sequence and interaction of these processes.

My personal plan for the 9K2K version Quality Manual is to include 3 things:

- the Q Policy
- the list of system level procedures
- a flowchart of work, from opportunity of work through to delivery/servicing/feedback, AND highlight where the system level procedures apply in the grand scheme of all of this. TOO EASY!

I do also use flow charts for mapping out the processes of organisations so that I can then break them down in to meaningful chunks and converting the chunks to procedures. It provides a logical sequence.

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Alf Gulford
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Posts: 60
From:Portland, OR
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 12 December 2000 09:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alf Gulford   Click Here to Email Alf Gulford     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Morning, Marc-
The article is on page 34, 'Give Your Process the Right Flow' (December issue).

The particular quote is, "The revised ISO 9001:2000 standard requires that all business processes, defined as any process important to product realization, be flow charted." This is on the first page, third paragraph.

I don't think I'm taking anything out of context or reading more into it than there is.

Thanks.

Alf

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Marc Smith
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posted 12 December 2000 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hope this doesn't turn into a debacle as happened with QS-9000 interpretations...

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John C
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From:Cork City, Ireland
Registered: Nov 98

posted 12 December 2000 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for John C   Click Here to Email John C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now itās flowcharts. Last week it was Ī6 proceduresā. Well, thatās what we get when we interpret;- Everyone has their own interpretation and a lot of them have vested interest. The guy who writes in the quality mag needs to sell an article and if he has nothing to say, then heāll say something anyway.
If the standard says flowcharts, then we have to use flowcharts. But it doesnāt say flowcharts, so we donāt have to, but we may.
We Īhave to determine the sequence and their interactionā? Well, how about calling them 1, 2 and 3 for example? 1 feeds 2 and 2 feeds 3? Or any other way you can dream up, with or without flowcharts? All we have to do is read the standard and do what it says and donāt take crap from anyone that says otherwise. It really is that simple but look how people try to make it difficult, even for themselves!

For instance, looking again at 4.1: What about the famous 6 procedures? Well 4.1 tells us to document the QMS. Then it tells us to identify the processes needed for the QMS. Then it tells us (in the note at the end) that those processes that we have identified must include those for;
š management activities - section 5
š provision of resources - section 6
š product realisation - section 7
š measurement - section 8

When we document a QMS we do it by documenting the process by means of procedures so, to meet the requirement above, we are going to need at least 4, ie; one for each of those sections. But of the 6 that the standard mentions, 2 are in section 4 and 4 are in section 8. None in 5, 6 or 7. So where does that leave us?

The conclusion has to be that the standard demands more than 6.

Now, if we look at 4.2.1 Note 2, we see that Īthe size of the QMS documentation can differ due to the size, complexity and competence....ā So, if we take it that 9 is the absolute minimum, then a large, complex organisation, staffed by incompetents (not uncommon), would have a lot more. Maybe 20? Maybe 50? 150?

From this, we can make the very dependable conclusion that such an organisation must have a lot more than six, or nine. We might not say the standard demands it, but we can say that the standard expects it.

The '6 procedures' issue is a red herring. My opinion is that it never was an issue with the TC and that they left out the words ĪDocument and Implement proceduresā to give us the freedom to use our imagination in certain circumstances. I'm sure that they didn't mean us to start debating how little effort we could get away with. - To their credit, they do show awareness that we are building a documented system that is designed to meet the organisationās needs, not just the standardās requirements. The people who see some merit, or some problem in the apparent need for six, seem to have forgotten this aspect.

ISO 9k2k isnāt born yet and people are already rewriting it in their heads. If it turns out to be a monster, then it will be because we made it that way.
rgds, John C

[This message has been edited by John C (edited 12 December 2000).]

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Roger Wahl
unregistered
posted 14 December 2000 10:56 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If anyone is unclear what article is being discussed here, it is available on-line at http://qualitymag.com ("Give Your Process the Right Flow).

Is the magazine quoting directives from a spec that hasn't even met final approval? It seems to me this article could be lumped in with all the other articles & books that tell you how to implement the "new" ISO9000:2000. In a word - speculation.

The article would have held up better if it said that it is required to document business process and ONE of the better ways to do this is by flow charting.

Just curious if Quality Magazine has been certified to ISO 9000 standards.........

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David Mullins
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From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 14 December 2000 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Is the magazine quoting directives from a spec that hasn't even met final approval? "

AS/NZS ISO 9000/1/4:2000 were available for sale in Australia since last Monday, so we now know what is in it. If you have trouble deciding on an interpretation, ring your registrar/auditor and see what they think. (remember getting another registrar is easier than getting a hooker)

Question: Is a respected journalist one who is respected by the intended audience, or one who is revered by jounalistic peers for never letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

Journalistic Integrity: an oxy-moron.

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