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  ISO 9001/4:2000
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Author Topic:   CEO Involvement
energy
Forum Contributor

Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 08 March 2001 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We obtained a consultant to assist us with ISO 9001:2000 implementation. He insists that senior management, preferably the CEO, be at the 1st and 2nd training sessions. Obviously, due to the importance of Management's involvement the new standard. How far do I go with insisting (as much as I'm allowed)that they attend. Marc said in one of his posts that in auditing he cuts the CEO/President some slack and audits the Quality Mgt System and processes. If everything is cool, the CEO/President is left alone. Our proposed training sessions will run a full workday:8 to 4. Our CEO has stated he will be there part time. We also have a General Manager, who really runs the show. Can our CEO designate him as the top of the pyramid? My gut feel is yes. How about it?

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D.Scott
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Posts: 37
From:Wellington, OH USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 08 March 2001 09:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for D.Scott   Click Here to Email D.Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The key to successful implementation of your quality system is commitment of management. If the CEO doesn't have time for it, nobody else will either and you'll live to regret it. Certainly, the CEO can't be expected to invest masses of time in developing the system - that's why he hired you and the consultant. Because you have to "live with" the CEO, you can't insist he be there but without his help you are going to be pushing your system uphill. Is he open enough to discuss this with? If so, he may agree to session 1 if not both sessions. The higher the company commitment the more effective the system will be. Besides - consultants get paid for the number of signatures on the meeting sign-in sheet :>)

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Dan Larsen
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Posts: 137
From:Sussex, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 08 March 2001 09:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Larsen   Click Here to Email Dan Larsen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personally, I wouldn't push it. If he wants to be there, fine, but if he's hired a consultant and has expressed belief in the system (privately), then you have the commitment.

Most often, the CEO has already reserched this in their own way well in advance of implementing the introductory training.

I do think it would be good if he takes the time to introduce the session and makes a strong statement of support. This often is sufficient.

I'll go on to say that I think your consultant is being a bit pushy in this case...kind of like biting the hand that feeds you. I've been involved in these as well (smaller companies) and when the president asks if he should be there, I suggest he be there for an introductory statement and after that it's up to him. Most don't stick around, but the stong statement on the front end is useful in setting the tone.

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Marc Smith
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Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 09 March 2001 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Dan.

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energy
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Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09 March 2001 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with you and Dan. I presented it to the consultant and he now agrees. Our CEO will be with us a few hours, at least. He will drop in, occasionally, and will want progress reports. The General Manager will be presented as his representative. The CEO has stated that this ISO Registration is very important and has made it clear and will continually re-enforce this objective. That's the best we can do. And, Dan, no way will I "push it". Thanks Marc

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 09 March 2001 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't thank me. Thank Dan. He was the one who responded so elequently.

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Carl Redman
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 6
From:
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 18 April 2001 12:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl Redman   Click Here to Email Carl Redman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the extent of the Senior Managers' involvement will always depend upon the Senior Manager. However, I would say that they should "grow with the system". Sure, this doesn't mean that they work on the subject constantly - but remember during the certification process, it is the CEO/Senior Manager that will be asked to give the System Overview, and not the Management Rep. So... I think that the CEO's (at some point) will need to get their hands dirty!

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energy
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Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 18 April 2001 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Carl,
Oh No. Woe is me!
energy (Mgt. Rep.)

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ISO GUY
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Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 18 April 2001 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just to let you all know, we just had our Registrar in and Executive Mgmt. was written up for not supporting the system. Now maybe they will support me and listen to what I have to say instead of paying lip service to the system, it will be very interesting around here the next few weeks.

[This message has been edited by ISO GUY (edited 18 April 2001).]

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energy
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Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 18 April 2001 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO GUY,
If that happened more often, we would have an easier time of it. I just don't think it is the norm. Somehow, they manage to stay above the fray.
energy

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 18 April 2001 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO GUY,

What were the circumstances that led the auditor to issue a C/A, was there a lack of management review evidence?

I'd like to know how management is handling the corrective action!

Are you the management rep. that has to review their corrective action and submit it to the lead auditor? (hopefully you are not the scapegoat)

Luckily (?) for you they will have to back up their C/A with evidence.

ASD...

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ISO GUY
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Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 23 April 2001 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm Al where do I begin. We have a ISO Steering Committe which is good, however, there used to be 3 of the Executive Owners on it, 2 droped off and had other managers replace them, so we are left with 1 Executive on the ISC. Thats not really such a bad thing since the one Executive left meets with the others to discuss what is going on. What is bad is when there are action items that they need to follow up on they don't, or if they do it takes them 1-2 years to do it! What a joke. Their training records are terrible,"why do we need to read all this stuff". They don't care if the Managers respond to the internal audits, or to Corrective Actions, etc..

You ask what are they going to do to address this problem, well I said they need to get their training records upto date and keep them they way to start. I suggested they also start with a letter to the company stating their support for the system, and I said why not report to the employees on a monthly basis on the performance of the Quality System. They liked the first two ideas but the last idea they didn't "what good would that do", geez guys it wouldnt show your continuing support of Quality, it wouldn't put it in front of everyone saying he guys this is important lets get on the ball, it wouldnt keep the Executives themselves informed on how things are going and where things are lacking.

No I am not the Mgmt. Rep. but I may as well be, I give our Mgmt. rep. all the answers and they take credit for it.

I mentioned this is another posting but our auditors asked me why I was still working here and had not gone else where for employment. They felt that my work was very comptent (even though my spelling stinks), but they questioned the ability of two of our Quality Managers Here I sit below them on the food chain I make less, but I know more. This was also told to one of our owners by the auditors. I brought this up with this person after the audit (they happen to be my boss also), I said I think i have proven my worth to the company and what happened during our audit only proves my point. The facility I am responsible for had 0 nonconformances, our other two facilities had 7. When i asked for a raise and promotion I was laughed at and said hey if you want us to even consider this you need to put something in writing to justifiy it before we will even consider it. i feel like saying my justification is, our Registrar is coming back in 6 months if we are not better by then they will pull our cert. how about if I seek employment elsewhere and let you guys sink. But there are some things you just cant say. Will i be the scape goat that remains to be seen. Well that was a good bit## session!!

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David Mullins
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Posts: 248
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 23 April 2001 08:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sympathies ISO GUY,
If you're going to be labelled a "Co-ordinator", you might as well cut off your wedding tackle and place a large jar of vaseline on your desk.
A Co-ordinator is an unfortunate position.

Look on the bright side - you could be stuck with Energy's consultant!!!!!!!!!

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energy
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Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 24 April 2001 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO Guy,
We all know more than the other guy. It's just unfortunate that only we know.
energy

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energy
Forum Contributor

Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 24 April 2001 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by David Mullins:
Sympathies ISO GUY,


Look on the bright side - you could be stuck with Energy's consultant!!!!!!!!!


David,

It's not the consultant. It's the company and their inability to listen to anyone who advocates ISO over "the way things are". Profits rule.
energy

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Eye Spy
unregistered
posted 24 April 2001 02:36 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO Guy - I didn't know we worked for the same company

Wondering if there is an orphanage out there somewhere where a number of Exec's are trained in the art of ignoring the tools they should be using to manage?

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David Mullins
Forum Contributor

Posts: 248
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 25 April 2001 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Energy, I don't have a problem with consultants - provided they are providing value for money.

Your first post re your consultant was that s/he insisted the CEO attend all the training and meetings (there abouts), only to later change his/her mind.

Then they provided ineffective training and a kick-off that was a waste of everyone's time - they didn't get Key Stakeholder commitment before proceeding - and, thus far, neither have you. GO BACK 3 SPACES.

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Laura M
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Posts: 299
From:Rochester, NY US
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 25 April 2001 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO GUY - so what was the evidence that led to the N/C? And, was it a major?

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energy
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Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 26 April 2001 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
David,
The consultant changed his mind early as you said. Based on the response in this forum regarding forced CEO participation, that was a wise choice. He did get key stakeholders commitment. However, when he left, so did their commitment. Again, the company is at fault..not the consultant. As Marc so eloquently put it "You can't get blood out of a turnip"? Also, I have no illusions that we are doomed to failure unless there is a 180 degree turn around in attitudes and real commitment. Your game board doesn't have enough spaces for me go back three spaces. So, King Me!
energy

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ISO GUY
Forum Contributor

Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 26 April 2001 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Laura M:

ISO GUY - so what was the evidence that led to the N/C? And, was it a major?


What was the evidence, no training records, or very poor evidence of training for our Executive Management, not following up on actions as a result of the ISC meetings, people not responding to internal audits, or corrective actions, our other facilities had poor training records, Executive Mgmt. was informed numerous times that we had problems in these areas and they did nothing about it. Was it a major N/C, well our Registrar doesnt give major or minors just N/C's, but in my opinion I would consider it a Major. Considering we are on a yearly cyclye for Surv. audits and they are coming back in 6 months and if things are not better bye bye to our Cert., I would also say that would make it a major, along with the fact that we had 6 other N/C's.
**************************
Edited to separate the quote from the response.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 27 April 2001).]

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David Mullins
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Posts: 248
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 26 April 2001 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The N/C's relate to the old problem of getting commitment, and then keeping it. Threatening managers that they will lose their certification/registration if they don't improve doesn't create a motivated environment. (and there has certainly been discussion about motivation oc this forum previously)

As individuals we either change our environment to suit our picture of how things should be, or we conform to our environment and modify our picture of what is OK.

This is a case for changing the culture of the organisation. If you can't do it on your own, enlist the support of like-minded managers. Then pick off other managers one at a time to get them committed to executing their responsibilities. When you have the majority of managers on-side, the remainder should be easy to convert (except for the usual few who are long on talk and short on action).

You either conform or convert - your choice.


Energy - who engaged the consultant?

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energy
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Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 27 April 2001 09:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
David,

When you read this, you will find it very hard to believe. Believe me, I lived it. As I continued to get quotations from various consultants, we wanted a local consultant to reduce mileage/expenses (orders from on high), it appeared no one was seriously interested. Out of the blue, ćon highä says to call this particular consultant. This is when it starts to get interesting. This consultant was utilized in the past when we were all together in a previous company. We never did our assignments, put all the responsibility on one person, did all the wrong things and never even got close for a gap assessment. Our company closed operations in our area and we all went on our merry ways. Now, we are back together again in a new ćstart upä company doing pretty much the same work that the old company did.
When I contacted this particular consultant, he finally made the connection between us and that other company who never gave a s÷t. This was after I reminded him that we were a previous client under another name. We paid him in full in 4 months and continued to attend sessions for another 4 months, and someone pulled the plug. It didnāt matter because nobody contributed to the cause anyway. The main thing to remember is that the Executive decision maker is the same person, then, as we have now.
The consultant, in my opinion, did it right. Knowing our history, he emphasized teamwork, management commitment, etc. He got the CEO, not the decision maker here, to verbally commit and say those things to the troops that brings everyone together for a noble cause. The fact remains, he trusts the decision maker to call the shots, with full confidence.
No itās not the consultant. This collection of personnel would challenge any consultantās ability to get the job done. If the consultant did it all, his or herself, we would have a better chance. We went dirt cheap, hence the amount of homework assignments, and you get what you pay for.
The question is: Why didnāt they learn from the last time? The answer: They never had a clue the first time.
Now, you be nice to me. Iām a Project Manager, with no measurable authority, (Mgt. Rep, too) charged with managing a project that will probably go about 18 months-2 years, or never, due to lack of interest. Donāt weep for me. I find my solace here in the forum engaging charming personalities such as your self. Hey, does anybody know who the dude is in the photo that greets us when we enter the forum. Boy, he looks familiar!

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David Mullins
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Posts: 248
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 29 April 2001 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ouch! Sounds like a recurring nightmare.

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