The Elsmar Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums More Free Files Forum Discussion Thread Post Attachments Listing Elsmar Cove Discussion Forums Main Page
Welcome to what was The Original Cayman Cove Forums!
This thread is carried over and continued in the Current Elsmar Cove Forums

Search the Elsmar Cove!

Wooden Line
This is a "Frozen" Legacy Forum.
Most links on this page do NOT work.
Discussions since 2001 are HERE

Owl Line
The New Elsmar Cove Forums   The New Elsmar Cove Forums
  ISO 9001/4:2000
  Processes??

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Processes??
WillB
unregistered
posted 06 April 2001 11:36 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm confused about the term "processes" in the revised (2000) ISO 9001 standard. The example (Fig 1) adds to the confusion. Can processes be defined as Sales, Engineering, Materials Management, Manufacturing, Quality Assurance, etc?

IP: Logged

ikar
unregistered
posted 07 April 2001 09:10 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agree. This is a confusion.
One of the definitions of a "process" is - "transformation of materials, energy and other resources to output". So where is such transformation in process - "Management Responsibility" (ch.5)? It is a function or activity, but not a process.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 07 April 2001 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A process is any (planned) sequence of events which yeilds one or more outputs from one or more imputs. Sales is a process. Inspection is a process. Management responsibility is a 'topic', if you will. The things management does (e.g.: management review) are processes.

Design Engineering is a functional classification while design is done by a process.

IP: Logged

ikar
unregistered
posted 08 April 2001 07:55 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Disagree. According to 3.4.2 of ISO 9000:2000 process is resulted in product. What is the ăproductä of Inspection ăprocessä? A signed piece of paper or a label on a real product? See also note 2 in cl. 3.4.1 of ISO 9000:2000. ăProcesses · are carried out under controlled conditions to add value.ä Inspection doesnât add value. It is carried out due to external requirements and inability to ensure the highest quality. So, if I say ăprocessä, I consider only production process which adds value to input, transforms it and resulted in final product(service). All other activities support it.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 08 April 2001 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO 9000 page 10, item 3.4.2 says a product is the result of a process. You ask: "...What is the 'product' of Inspection 'process'?..." The inspection results are
the 'product' of the inspection.

Just before that 'explaination' is 3.4.1 which describes a process as "...set of inter-related or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs..."

Then you say: "...Processes · are carried out under controlled conditions to add value..." which is close, but read closely and you will see note 2 in fact qualifies the note with the term '...generally..'. Thus, a process does not always 'add value'.

I do not agree that the word process carries such as narrow definition as you imply.

IP: Logged

ikar
unregistered
posted 09 April 2001 02:52 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, cl.3.4.2 NOTE 1
"There are four generic product categories, as follows:
÷ services (e.g. transport);
÷ software (e.g. computer program, dictionary);
÷ hardware (e.g. engine mechanical part);
÷ processed materials (e.g. lubricant)."
You say " the inspection results are the 'product' of the inspection." How can I define inspection results due to this classification?

3.4.1. Note 2 .The word "generally" (I suppose) is related to "under controlled conditions" and not to "add value".
I don't want to appear before you as a kind of mean-spirited man, but the thorough understanding of termin "process" is very important today. I see a lot of speculations in many articles around "process approach", "system approach to management", "process management", "management as a process".
Kind regards

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 09 April 2001 04:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
->3.4.1. Note 2 .The word "generally" (I suppose) is related
->to "under controlled conditions" and not to "add value".

I understand the word "...generally..." to refer to "...value added...", not '"...under controlled conditions..." but I suppose it can refer to both.

My interpretation is that a way of doing something is essentially a process. I do not even necessarily relate it to a physical output. For eaxmple, in 3.4.4 it says: "...set of proceses (3.4.1) that transforms requirements (3.1.2) into specified characteristics (3.5.1) or into the speification (3.7.3) of a product (3.4.2), process (3.4.1) or system 3.2.1). Above I said:
->Design Engineering is a functional classification while
->design is done by a process.
and this pretty well confirms my interpretation.

My opinion is you are trying too hard to restrict the definition of process. You are trying to restrict the word process to apply only to operational processes and restricting the words "inputs" and "outputs" to physical items. There are inputs into the design process and outputs from it. There are inputs into the purchasing process and outputs from it. They're not physical, per se (e.g.: a design requirement is an input to the design process, is arguably not value added, and the design output is typically paper or computer file [design drawing and such]).

I stand my my statement that:
->Management responsibility is a 'topic', if you will. The
->things management does (e.g.: management review) are processes.

You say:
->So, if I say "process", I consider only production process
->which adds value to input, transforms it and resulted in
->final product

I believe my example of 3.4.4 makes clear that your statement is not correct.

Just flow chart your systems - you'll see they represent processes.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 09 April 2001 05:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
->I see a lot of speculations in many articles around
->"process approach", "system approach to management",
->"process management", "management as a process".

Yup - lots of people trying to sell you something. This is not that complicated. I stand by my assertion that if you do what I have recommended to clients since 1994 - flow chart your systems - you will see every system is a process or processes each of which has inputs and outputs -- and inter-relationships are well defined - that's all this is about. Your internal audit system is a process or a set of processes. Purchasing is a process or a series of processes. You have a nonconformance system which is made up of processes. Taken to the extreme, almost everything can be looked at as a process.

I took a course in the mid-1980's called "Business as a Process". None of this is new. It is more 'Good Business Practices' which is all ISO 9001 is. When you reach the point where you can understand everything you do in terms of inter-relating processes, you can then go on to evaluate each in terms of cycle time, effectiveness of interaction, etc. The course goal was, by the way, how to ensure continuous improvement -- a relatively 'new' concept to the ISO standards folks -- and stressed the use of experiments to generate knowledge as well as process feedback for learning.

If you take a step back and review ISO 9001 against the reality of good business practices you will find ISO 9001 is at least 10 to 15 years behind the times. If you are just now looking at your business as a series of processes with inputs and outputs, and you implement and take ISO 9001 to heart, your company will improve significantly.

IP: Logged

ikar
unregistered
posted 09 April 2001 05:37 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Taken to the extreme, almost everything can be looked at as a process" and "flow chart your systems - you will see every system is a process or processes".
Acting such a way I'll die at the first stage of identifying numerous processes (to my mind more than 500). Is there any alternative?

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 09 April 2001 05:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your next step is to determine which to document and which not to. How many of your 500+ processes are documented now?

IP: Logged

ikar
unregistered
posted 09 April 2001 06:43 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you. I see it's a kind of consulting.
20 - 25%

IP: Logged

Willb
unregistered
posted 09 April 2001 09:11 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks to Marc and ikar for your comments.
I deduct that i need to further chart our company's activities (or processes). I have charted functions such as Management, Administration, Sales, Engineering, Manufacturing, Purchasing Quality Assurance, etc. Now I will attempt to chart Contract Review, Design/Design Review, Production Planning, Purchasing, Fabrication/Machining, Warehousing, Assembly/Test, Store/Preserve /Pack & Deliver.

Your comments! Am I going in the right direction?

IP: Logged

Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

Posts: 575
From:Seymour, CT USA
Registered: Nov 98

posted 09 April 2001 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A late entry:

Products arenât necessarily tangible items. A consulting firm produces IDEAS as the Product. Any process delivers an output. It might be of value, it might be waste, or a mix of both.

There are many processes in an organization. I classify them two ways: Primary and Support. Primary processes are those that traditionally feed the Gemba. Support processes are non-Gemba processes, but important contributors to the Gemba processes. Now, which do you document?

For me, you must document the Primary Processes (reference Marc Smithâs contributions above, i.e. Design). Then, do some type of risk analysis to determine where else a document will help to ensure that the risk is reduced or eliminated. Another important distinction for me is with something Marc mentioned earlier. The steps that transform the inputs into the outputs must be reviewed closely. Not all steps need to be documented, but critical ones might. Determine your critical points. Then ask, ăHow will I ensure that mistakes are avoided?ä Maybe a document, check-sheet, or perhaps poka yoke the process. The choice is yours. Then Train, Train, Train!!

Regards,

Kevin

IP: Logged

Carl Redman
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 6
From:
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 18 April 2001 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carl Redman   Click Here to Email Carl Redman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Colleagues in Quality

I would like to know what the real difference is between a process and a procedure? If we document a process - as we must do - does it become a procedure?

Carl

IP: Logged

Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 18 April 2001 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Carl Redman:
Dear Colleagues in Quality

I would like to know what the real difference is between a process and a procedure? If we document a process - as we must do - does it become a procedure?

Carl


Simply,

A process is an entity that has inputs and outputs.

A procedure is a document that "could" define the process.

I say "could" because many companies use a process flow chart that they do not define as a level II procedure but as a level III instruction. (i.e. flow chart for part# 123 op 100)

Some companies use flow charts exclusively as their level II procedures.

These flow charts are not specifically "product" related as usually is the case in automotive flow charts. They are flow charts that define the flow of how a company meets a certain required ISO/QS/TS element. (i.e. flow chart to define the process for 4.17 internal audit)


ASD...

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 18 April 2001 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would watch getting too attached to specific definitions. By this I mean you have to look at the context. For example, many think of a procedure as a written document. This is not always the case. A procedure can be a 'standard' way of doing something which is known and understood but is not written down. If you take a minute and read the definition of procedure (Go to http://www.wordsmyth.net) you will find no mention of documentation. A procedure is just a way of doing something.

As with procedure, there are multiple definitions for the word process.

Many times it does not matter what word you use and, in fact, in some cases which word is used depends upon the level of detail you are looking at. This is to say if you are looking at a high level system map, you might call sub-systems processes. And if you 'blow up' the process and look just at it you may refer to IT as a system and its sub-systems as processes.

Just as there are few documents which you can strictly classify, there is flexibility in word choice many times. An example I see all the time is a level II which includes what could be separated out into a level III. If your level II contains all the level III info, and evn an associated form or two, it is no big deal. Many companies do not have a need for a highly structured documentation system. One small company I worked with a few years back had one manual - their quality manual. All 'system' flow charts were in that 60 some odd page manual as well as procedures. Forms were in the appendix.

I would go so far as to say in general there is little if any difference between a process and a procedure. But I would look at the context in which the word is used.

Nor is there a difference based upon an input or output being present. Both procedures / instructions and processes have inputs and outputs if you look closely.

One last comment. Al said:
->Some companies use flow charts exclusively as their level
->II procedures.
->These flow charts are not specifically "product" related
->as usually is the case

which implies that a flow chart is not a procedure for some reason.I disagree. A flow chart is every bit a procedure as a text document and it is totally unrelated to the 'level'. Nor is it related to whether or not the procedure is product related. Most of my clients flow chart 'level II' procedures / systems as well as level III procedure (or instructions or whatever you want to call them). If you can write an instruction/procedure for something, it can be done in flow chart form.

Rule of thumb is the bigger the company, the more they have to define in detail their documentation structure and definitions. What I call a work instruction, someone else will call a procedure. Others will call it a process procedure. I have seen them called '...the Mapix...' in a company where their process documents came from a certain software package. I see other companies where everything is on the router - asking for a work instruction will get you a totally blank look.

BTW - It is not true that you have to document every process. You only document processes which it makes sense to document.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 18 April 2001 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Check out /Imp/sld025.htm and some of the following slides for some thoughts.

IP: Logged

Q rex
Forum Contributor

Posts: 14
From:St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 19 April 2001 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Q rex   Click Here to Email Q rex     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Information Mapping seems to have considered this in some depth. They identify process and procedure as two of six information "types". (The other four are structure, principle, concept, and fact.)

Procedure is action, the other five are knowledge.

Process is defined as what happens or how it works, malted barley is ground in a two-roll mill. "a series of events, stages, or phases that takes place over time and has an identifiable result."

Procedure is defined as how to do it, set up two-roll mill, weigh malted barley, press start switch on mill, pour malt into mill feed hopper, remove cracked malt from mill discharge hopper, switch off mill, clean up. "a set of steps that a person performs to achieve a specified outcome, including decisions that need to be made"

The basic difference between process and procedure is point of view. There are two: from outside the process and from within the process. In classical math and physics speak, Eulerian and Lagrangian frames. If you are within the process, you are in procedure-space. There is no "process" relative to this frame of reference, because you are moving through time with it. If you are outside the process, you are in process-space. With respect to this frame of reference, the rest of the world, there is a process happening.



IP: Logged

Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 19 April 2001 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc,

I posted:

.......Some companies use flow charts exclusively as their level II procedures.

These flow charts are not specifically "product" related as usually is the case in automotive flow charts. They are flow charts that define the flow of how a company meets a certain required ISO/QS/TS element. (i.e. flow chart to define the process for 4.17 internal audit).....

I was not implying that flow charts are not procedures, only that some companies consider them differently in their document structure.

For example, some companies consider the flow chart that is generated through APQP/PPAP as a level III instruction.

The same company might use a flow chart to define the entire APQP/PPAP process and consider it a level II procedure.

I think all flow charts are procedures and
instructions. The only difference is how the company sets up their document levels.

As you said, there are multiple definitions for words and I think a company should make sure they have a common understanding of the meanings.

ASD...

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 19 April 2001 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ah! I misunderstood.

IP: Logged

ikar
unregistered
posted 19 April 2001 12:49 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Al Dyer writes:"A procedure is a document..."
Be careful. I would like to hear your interpretations of the numerous phrases in Standard - "documented procedure". Does it mean "documented document"?
Below you can also find some additional words regatding "procedures vs. processes". It was taken from www.transition-support.com


"
Procedures are driven by completion of the task
Processes are driven by achievement of a desired outcome

Procedures are implemented
Processes are operated

Procedures steps are completed by difference people in different departments with different objectives
Process stages are completed by different people with the same objectives - departments do not matter

Procedures are discontinuous
Processes flow to conclusion

Procedures focus on satisfying the rules
Processes focus on satisfying the customer

Procedures define the sequence of steps to execute a task
Processes transform inputs into outputs through use of resources

Procedures are driven by humans
Processes are driven by physical forces some of which may be activated by humans

Procedures may be used to process information
Information is processed by use of a procedure

Procedures exist they are static
Processes behave they are dynamic

Procedures cause people to take actions and decisions
Processes cause things to happen
"

Good Luck

IP: Logged

Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 19 April 2001 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ikar:
Al Dyer writes:"A procedure is a document..."

Sorry, what I meant to post was:

A procedure can be a document that "could" define the process.

You refered to "documented procedure ...".

By belief is that the writers recognized that some procedures may not be written down (documented) and wanted to ensure that the procedures they deemed "important" were written down (documented).

ASD...

IP: Logged

rrramirez
Forum Contributor

Posts: 23
From:Caracas, Venezuela
Registered: May 99

posted 19 April 2001 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rrramirez   Click Here to Email rrramirez     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO 9000:2000 defines:
3.4.5 Procedure: specified way to perform a process (3.4.1)

NOTE 1 - The procedure could be doccumented or not.

NOTE 2 - When a procedure is documented, the term ăwritten procedure ä or ădocumented procedure ä frequently used.

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time (USA)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Hop to:

Contact Us | The Elsmar Cove Home Page

Your Input Into These Forums Is Appreciated! Thanks!


Main Site Search
Y'All Come Back Now, Ya Hear?
Powered by FreeBSD!Made With A Mac!Powered by Apache!