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  ISO 9001/4:2000
  Auditing

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Author Topic:   Auditing
Russ
Forum Contributor

Posts: 17
From:Tipton, IN
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04 May 2001 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russ   Click Here to Email Russ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have just taken the Lead Auditor course, and was told that the MR shouldn't be doing internal audits because he/she can't be truly objective. What is everyone's thoughts on this? This has been common practice here where I am the MR, yet I see where our instructor was coming from. I also issue all NCR's to the areas after an internal audit, and screen the corrective action when they are returned. How is everyone else doing this? I thought we were doing good!

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DICKIE
Forum Contributor

Posts: 46
From:Romulus, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 04 May 2001 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DICKIE   Click Here to Email DICKIE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Our MR does about half of the internal audits, the other half done by the other 3 people we have trained. Prior to our registration the MR did all the internal audits and it was not a problem with our auditor. After registration we thought it would be a good idea to spread the fun around.

Greg

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goose
Forum Contributor

Posts: 17
From:nc
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04 May 2001 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goose   Click Here to Email goose     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We audit in teams of 2 people, 6 teams.
Audits are scheduled by a QE who is audit coordinator. Mgt Rep. is member of a team but coordinator takes care to schedule Rep's team in area where there is total independence. Coordinator reports audit status to Rep who inturn reports to Mgt.

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04 May 2001 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just went through a session of selecting a registrar and the question of whether the MR can also be the Lead Internal Auditor was part of our decision process.

In all cases we had a representative from the registrar and the potential auditor. They all unanimously said that, yes, the MR can be the LIA as long as they do not audit areas that they are responsible for.

In my situation that means that I cannot audit 4.1 management responsibility, 4.5 document control, and 4.17 internal audit.

We do have an internal audit team that would audit the areas that I could not, although it is still my responsibility to produce and report the audit results to management and issue corrective actions.

Along with this responsibility I also realize that I must ensure that my areas of responsibility are conforming to standards and requirements. If not, there would be no credibility to my position. It comes down to personal and corporate integrity.

Would you mind posting the name of your lead auditr trainer?

All companies are continually striving to reduce costs and the cost of having a full time internal auditor can be prohibitive to small and medium sized companies. We all wear many hats and reputible registrars and auditors realize this.

Hell, most of the lead auditors probably started out as managements reps and internal auditors!

ASD...

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Dan Larsen
Forum Contributor

Posts: 137
From:Sussex, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 04 May 2001 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Larsen   Click Here to Email Dan Larsen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like Al, I don't see an issue with having the MR handle audits. In fact, based on the defined responsibilities for the MR within the standard, I tend to think this is logical.

Of course, integrity could be an issue but that's where the registrar comes in. Now, the MR shouldn't audit areas of direct responsibility (4.17 is the most obvious). Use an alternative lead auditor for those areas. Better yet, have the President coordinate and review those audits...after all it's his/her system and the MR works for him/her!

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eskay
Forum Contributor

Posts: 21
From:Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06 May 2001 10:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for eskay   Click Here to Email eskay     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't see any problem in MR conducting the internal audits. I myself being a MR for our group of companies, I almost audit all the areas (except ofcourse 4.1, 4.5 & 4.17). And this has never been a issue with the Registrars. Audit of 4.1, 4.5 & 4.17 was done by other qualified internal auditors who were independent within our company.

------------------
Eskay
Seven Seas Group of Companies
Dubai

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rock
Forum Contributor

Posts: 11
From:Racine, WI USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07 May 2001 09:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rock   Click Here to Email rock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russ,
In 8.2.2 of the 2000 edition states
"Auditors shall not audit their own work." You should be OK unless you have a lot of overlap at your company.
Mike

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Fire Girl
Forum Contributor

Posts: 41
From:Orillia, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07 May 2001 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fire Girl   Click Here to Email Fire Girl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russ

I just had this very discussion with my registar at our last audit. He told me I was not to be auditing areas I was responsible for. I do co-ordinate the Internal Auditing but I stll felt I should be auditing Internal Auditing. I felt that it was a good way for me to check up on my Internal Auditors and how they were doing. He disagreed. So then end result.... I can't audit any areas I am responsible for.

:confused

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energy
Forum Contributor

Posts: 228
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07 May 2001 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russ,
Most of our written procedures contain signatures by Quality Assurance. Either as the originator or the authorizer. A case could be made that I can't audit any of those procedures. We'll argue that when the time comes. I would stay away from those areas mentioned in the previous postings. As MR all audit findings get reported to Top Management for review and disposition, so there is no conflict of interest there.
As far as auditor courses go, and I've been to a few, there are differing opinions between instructors on a number of topics. I treat the disparities as opinions and concentrate on the nuts and bolts of auditing.
energy

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