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Author Topic:   I need lots of Help!!!!
Master of IT
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Crookston MN USA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05 July 2001 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Master of IT   Click Here to Email Master of IT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was hired one year ago by a company that is looking to get certified. I started in May of 2001 after completing my masters in Industrial Technology. Lets just say the only quality courses that I took covered SPC and that is it. Well somehow I made the cut and was hired and the first thing I had to do was start learning about QS-9000. The company I am working for had absolutely no quality system and this was what I had to begin with. Lets just say I was not very popular with the workers. So I started in may and by march 2001 we were to be certified. Well that all blew up and now we are working towards ISO 9002 1994. Yes I understand that this is the old standard yet this is what I have to do. Well now I need to be done by Nov 2001. Lets just say this is very very very unrealistic and management does not care at all. I need help very badly, I am working with a consultant and this is going nowhere. So I am asking any out there for some help. I love the field that I am working in and want to be successful so if everyone was to help, your kindness will be returned ten-fold. Thanks Jon.

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energy
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Posts: 308
From:New Britain, CT
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05 July 2001 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for energy   Click Here to Email energy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jon,

This is the best site for you to get the information you need. But, without your Management and workforce embracing the concept, placing unrealistic time frames for YOU to get it done, no amount of informaton will help you. You had eight months and were about to be certified and it "blew up". What happened? Did the company walk away because it was too hard? Did a registrar dash their dreams? It's July and they want to go for it again, without the design element, in November. Sounds like it would be "do-able" if you got close the first time. If you explain "blew up" a with a little more detail, there are people on this site who will be willing to, and can help you.

energy

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Michael T
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Posts: 43
From:Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05 July 2001 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael T   Click Here to Email Michael T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Jon...

First off... this forum is the right place to start looking for any information on ISO/QS/TQM/etc. The ftp files are full of good information that help reduce a good bit of the "reinventing the wheel" syndrome.

Now - to the problem at hand...my advise: RUN LIKE H*LL... Sorry, that's kinda tongue-in-cheek, but you are in an untennable situation. If upper management isn't completely behind the ISO registration process and willing to adopt and live by the QMS procedures developed, you are pretty much doomed from the get-go. I was in a very similar situation in my former job and almost gave up the Quality profession because of it. Four months to conduct a gap analysis, develop, implement and audit a QMS (internally), schedule a pre-registration audit, etc., etc., etc. is, to quote you, "very very very unrealistic".

However, I am more than happy to help you any way I can (as I'm sure almost everyone on this forum would be). I have a couple of questions to get an idea of where you stand in this tempest...
1) How familiar are you with ISO-9002:1994?
2) Is ISO-9002 the standard you want to be registered to? (Meaning, do you have design control functions at your facility?)
3) If it is ISO rather than QS that management wishes to pursue, why not ISO-9001:2000?
4) How much of the QS program did you get accomplished before management changed their minds?

We have a pretty good system where I currently work, and I'd be willing to share the format, etc., with you.

Best of luck!!!

Mike

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Master of IT
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Crookston MN USA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05 July 2001 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Master of IT   Click Here to Email Master of IT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First of all what I mean by blew up is upper management decided that ISO better suited the customer were are attracting. So as for as close as I was at that time lets just say nowhere close to being complete. We also switched consultants at that time and ofcouse the rose picture was painted that yah you can get that done by that time. Well needless to say no one else here wants to get work done so it is dropped on me. So all my time is devoted to keeping management, personell, and customers happy. More like I am the goto guy than the company quality professional. I need to develop and start point, I have certain areas done yet when I start working on others I lose myself. It is as if I need to have a Quality System for Dummies. That just explains this is what you do. I hesitate to start because it seems that things are not done right the first time so there goes all that work and lets just start over. THis is getting very flustrating. I feel it would be better off to have worked with a working quality system than trying to pull one out of thin air. Thanks for the words of encouragement.

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 814
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05 July 2001 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agree with Jim and MT,

It might not be time to bail yet, but the writing is on the wall. Even if the certification goes well, what about the surv. audits. Document all activities in your goal of certification and save all those e-mails requesting others to "participate" in the process. Don't let them make you the scape-goat!

And management wants to go for ISO9000:1994? I bet they still have old TFE manuals yaying around.

Maybe do a good search of this site and print some of the posts and show management that at the very least, they should go for the 2000 version of ISO. You're going to have to upgrade anyways.

Without management buy-in the whole process is a waste of time. I hope they pay you well!

A previously posted, this is a good place to get the information you need and there are many members who will help you with any bumps in the road.

ASD...

[This message has been edited by Al Dyer (edited 05 July 2001).]

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Randy
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Posts: 264
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 05 July 2001 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are Registrars even doing 9000:94 anymore?

You may be spinning your wheels on the old standard. I'd do a quick check and see if it's too late for the 94 standard and start working on the 2000 version.

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Marc Smith
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Posts: 4367
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 05 July 2001 07:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I also question the 2 consultants. What were their approaches? Why did you switch? When did you switch.

There are both factors to consider. The consultant may not be 'knowledgeable' of may have stuck you with an 'idiot' plan.

If you were 'almost' done for QS-9000, then you should have everything you need for ISO 9000.

On the management end - last week I turned down a job because I know the environment would not be good for my mental health and well being.

-> Document all activities in your goal of certification and
-> save all those e-mails requesting others to "participate"
-> in the process. Don't let them make you the scape-goat!

Yes, yes, YES!!!

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4367
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 05 July 2001 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How many people in the company?

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Graeme
Forum Contributor

Posts: 58
From:Lilburn, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 05 July 2001 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Graeme   Click Here to Email Graeme     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Reality check: if top management is not actively supporting and aiding you, your chances are slim. YOU cannot do it. THEY have to do it, preferably with leadership by example. After all, why does the standard (whichever version) START with "top management responsibility"? And do they have any clue why it is called a Quality MANAGEMENT Standard"?

As it is said, I have been there, done that, and have a few scars from being subjected to TQLS (total quality lip service).

By the way, has anyone actually asked this potential customer what they want?

Some suggestions ...

  • Define your core (value-adding) and supporting business processes.
  • Determine how those processes are actually documented and managed.
  • Compare that to the requirements of the standard, using an objective evidence matrix.
  • Start filling in the holes. A good place to start is the appointment letter from the CEO to the Management Representative. That should make it clear that the MR has the CEO's ear and speaks with his/her voice.
  • Try to get the chief financial officer on board - if quality improvements are made they usually save money in the long run.
  • Even if you are not in a leadership position, try to lead by example.
  • Keep your resume updated and your scram bag packed.

Best wishes,
Graeme

[This message has been edited by Graeme (edited 05 July 2001).]

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Master of IT
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Crookston MN USA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 06 July 2001 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Master of IT   Click Here to Email Master of IT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are around 100 people employed with the company. The CEO has made it clear that I am the MR, yet does not stand behind what I am trying to do. The CEO feels that he knows how the Quality System is to work since he helped in the implementation at a facility he worked at before this. Well needless to say what ever I come up with is not what he wanted and then when I do what he wants it is usually incorrect either in scope or definition. As for the CFO well that is an entirely different story all together. Lets just say that where I work is more of soap opera than the "Young and the Restless". Not that there is anything wrong with a female financial officer, yet I have lost in the last year the production manager, inventory control specialist, two accountants, and one very experienced production supervisor, with another on the way out the door, along with the disposing of our plant manager back to PD manager, since the numbers where not meet. Know does this picture sound wonderful or what?

So as you can see the "NUMBERS" are more important than the Quality System. So you see where I am in the pack. And I am one of five managers left.

I have explored the options of leaving and had entertained an offer I recieved earlier this spring. Yet that company right now is very slow and a Quality Engineer may not be needed. So without jeopardizing my current position I stay in place. Also in the mix is the fact that I just bought my first home and in this area of the country there are not many jobs for people in the Quality field so again I am stuck where I am at.

I really want this to work. So maybe because I am a stupid pollak or maybe a little to chivalrous for my own good. I stay where I am at and just keep trying to get this done.

The consultants, the first one is a good friend of the CEO and ofcouse the CEO feels he is a complete help. Well when I ask for anything usually I am made out to feel like an idiot for asking. The other has 25 years of experience. Yet he is always a little too busy to respond to email or even when he is here that he is not looking at the clock and wondering when he could get back on the road.

I will update everyone with where I am at in reguards to each element. I have also contacted NSF-ISR and very much like the person I am dealing with. Has anyone worked with them before.

Thanks Jon.

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ISO GUY
Forum Contributor

Posts: 90
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 06 July 2001 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have worked with NSF before, who have you been talking with? They have some very good people working there.

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Michael T
Forum Contributor

Posts: 43
From:Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06 July 2001 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael T   Click Here to Email Michael T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, Jon... When I said your situation was untennable - I wasn't off the mark a bit... *yikes* Your situation almost mirrors my last job... it's all about the numbers... *Ugggghhhhh*

Ok... it looks like you are there for the long-haul (so to speak), so I would suggest starting to CYA (cover your @ss). As Al and Marc have suggested, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. If the boss wants it one way and you know it needs to be done another way - if you've argued your point to no avail, you don't have much choice but to do it the boss's way. Get it in writing.

I try to remember Dr. Deming's suggested response to management when they mandate something... Simply ask, "By what method?" In other words, Ok boss-man, I hear you - you want to decrease defects by 20% (increase profits, reduce down-time, enhance productivity, etc, etc, etc.)... how would you like me to go about it? It is management's responsibility to provide you with the plan and the tools necessary to carry that out. If they don't, it's not your failure - it's theirs.

In addition - it sounds as if both consultants can't help you - so don't count on them. Never dealt with NSF-ISR so I can't help on that score.

Another thing you do not want to do is internalize any of this situation. It will eat you alive. You have very little control over your situation - remember that. Leave it at work at night and don't take it home with you. All it will give you is an ulcer and can have seriously negative effects on relationships (experience talking here).

Anyway - I wish you the best of luck. Let me know if I can help.

Cheers!

Mike

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E Wall
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Posts: 114
From:Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 09 July 2001 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for E Wall   Click Here to Email E Wall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jon, To say you are in a 'tough knot' to unravel is beyond an understatement.

As the MR assigned YOU must make the plan, sell it to mgmt, and stick with it. Make sure you can justify your approach and remember to multiply your projected time-table by pi for a more accurate deadline.

Stress to all staff that you are the guide to implementing the system, but it takes ALL of you to work on it. The 2000 rev is easier to break down by taking the process approach, you should evaluate whether or not to switch.

A selling point for the switch will be that by registering to 1994 (regardless of when) your cert WILL expire Dec 15, 2003. By that date you will have to transition to the 2000 rev, so where is the added value in implementing 1994 version?

Good luck and if you include an e-mail in the profile, you mightget a little help if folks can send to you.

Best Regards, Eileen

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Master of IT
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Crookston MN USA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09 July 2001 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Master of IT   Click Here to Email Master of IT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have added my email to the profiles. Well just got done with an a** chewing from the CEO and let me say the old Hank William Jr, song came to mind.

I was just told that the reason for the lack of completion is my fault. Because as I quote "I put the ball in your court". To which I would have like to have said. "You understood that ISO is not my fortay so why would you not help quide me if you have already done this exercise". Yet I meekly shook my head yes and took my licking.

It was also said that the first consultant that is a friend of the CEO was going to write the QM and all of the upper level proceedures and that all I was too do was write the processes. He had never laid this out before me, so needless to say this very much upset me. First it says that I am not good enough to implement ISO. Second my road could have been much easier.

So where to go from here. I also recieved an email from my current consultant that auditor training will not be scheduled until Aug. I feel this is a little to late.

Any have any information on auditor training. Please help.

So now what. I have a review tomorrow morning with the CEO and the HR person what does one say. Or better how can I keep from jumping across the table and demonstrating my own style of managerial review.

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Michael T
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Posts: 43
From:Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09 July 2001 04:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael T   Click Here to Email Michael T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Jon,

Good ol' Hank... he sure knew how to put things... *laff*

If you'd like a PowerPoint presentation for internal auditor training, I have one that is fairly comprehensive (ISO-9000:1994), not the new version yet. While it does not include the forms we use during the actual audit (I go over those in detail in the practical exercises) it does give a good overview of the ISO program and what an internal audit should entail. You are welcome to it.

As for the review... *cringe* Don't know what to suggest there. Kevlar underwear?

Good luck!

Mike

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 09 July 2001 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If your consultant isn't taking the heat for this for you (if not with you) you have a real loser. I've gone to bat for a client's rep many times.

I don't know that you ever said why you (the company) switched consultants in the first place.

The fact that you have a consultant and are still 'getting nowhere' is telling. Apparently yours is one of the 'bad' ones.

Have you discussed all of this with your consultant? If so, what did s/he say? If not, why not?

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Master of IT
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Posts: 5
From:Crookston MN USA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 18 July 2001 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Master of IT   Click Here to Email Master of IT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well now it seems after the review that both the ceo and myself are to blame for the lack of progress. Which is not entirely of the point. NOW this may seem surprising, we are going ISO 9k 2k. So all of you who have sent me info. Thanks a bunch. Now can anyone make implementation of 2000 a little easier to understand. Thanks.

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Marc Smith
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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 18 July 2001 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
> Now can anyone make implementation
> of 2000 a little easier to understand.

Read through /Imp/

Also see /courses.html

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 814
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 18 July 2001 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Master,

So now your CEO gets to share the blame and you work for him?

MHO, time for a resume update!

ASD...

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richardatkinson
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Posts: 3
From:UK
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 20 July 2001 04:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for richardatkinson   Click Here to Email richardatkinson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As a student I am currently working on a project to describe how business processes and system standards such as ISO 9000 are established and implemented. I also hope to be able to describe implementation techniques which the above link allows.

I hope to also review some Quality/ISO9000 case studies. Can anyone point me in the direction of any reviews/case studies.

One last point I hope to make is that of analysing and measuring the quality system - is auditing the only way to show value and push improvement? Are there any quality costing techniques around (p-a-f)?

I would appreciate any help/guidance.

Richard Atkinson

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4367
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 20 July 2001 04:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-> hope to also review some Quality/ISO9000 case studies.
-> Can anyone point me in the direction of any reviews/case
-> studies.
->
-> One last point I hope to make is that of analysing and
-> measuring the quality system - is auditing the only way
-> to show value and push improvement? Are there any quality
-> costing techniques around (p-a-f)?

You might want to start a new thread on this topic.

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