posted 16 July 2001 03:14 AM               

what device are they talking about here? can a form, say for example used for measuring customer satisfaction, be considered a device?

posted 16 July 2001 11:44 AM               

It might help in answering your question if we knew what the industry and service your organization performs.

posted 16 July 2001 09:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by romelnar:
we are in in a PROPERTY MANAGEMENT industry. we manage people, building etc. we don't use any "devices", "equipment" or "instrument" to measure anything.

---

Maybe an additional question.

Have your customers requested registration or compliance to ISO?

I'm at somewhat of a loss as to why you would seek ISO and not sure if measurement and test equipment could be waived.

Anybody in the service industry that can help?

posted 16 July 2001 09:33 PM               

In short, you *probably* (there is a very remote possibility that you could have some type of measurement software - such as a computer program which tracks something - like Time-On-Line in a telephone response operation) are exempt from 7.6.

A form is controlled by your document control system and then, after it is completed, by your records control system.

Yes - I believe ISO 9001 is the correct standard.

posted 16 July 2001 10:28 PM               

monitoring and measuring devices measure the parameters of a particular product (e.g. width of a wire is measured by a caliper, thermohygrograph measures temperature and relative humidity). in service industry, their product is the "service" they are providing (see "3 terms and definition" of iso9001: 2000). what are the important and critical parameters that they measure? example is " speed of response", "manner of their response", etc. say for example that these parameters are measured using a "customer satisfaction survey" form. will this form they are using be considered as monitoring and measuring device? i think the answer is "yes". then how do they verify this form? one way is to revise it in a periodic basis depending on the current environment. what is the intent? "to guarantee an accurate response". since you want them to respond in a manner that is value-adding to you, you want to guarantee yourself an accurate and true answer. by revising either the physical form or its content periodically, one can avoid a boredom in answering the survey.

i think this is what is in ISO9004-2: 1991 which was now integrated in ISO9001: 2000. remember that this new version is intended genirically and should be interpreted as how it can be adopted on any organization such as service.

posted 16 July 2001 11:53 PM               

What these parameters are depends entirely upon what the company does - and what it determines to be 'important measureables'.

-> will this form they are using be considered as monitoring
-> and measuring device?

While one could argue that a form is a 'device', and one could probably go so far as to even say the form could be 'calibrated', I really don't think 7.6 is meant to address forms. Can you imagine trying to 'calibrate' a Customer Survey' (as an example).

The largest part of it to me is I do not believe the intent is to define a form as a 'device'. During the service company registration that I was involved in it was clear they were not looking at forms as M&TE. The standard talks about "...measuring equipment..." which doesn't equate very well to a form.

One last thing - if you have a form, what standard are you going to 'calibrate' it against? You cannot 'calibrate' something unless you have a standard to compare it to. ISO 9001:2000, section 7.6 line item "a" requires traceability.

-> one way is to revise it in a periodic basis depending on
-> the current environment.

Nope - that's not a 'standard'.

posted 19 July 2001 12:40 AM               

if this is not valid, then what happend to clause "6.3.6. Measurement Control" of "ISO9004-2 Guidelines for Services"?

posted 19 July 2001 01:07 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by svtcontour:

This process does not provide evidence of conformity to product requirements. In this case does this equipment fall under this clause?
Thx

---

If I was the auditor I would definitely question you about how you know that the equipment is correctly doing its job. The statement : "...a process required for appropriate compensation for the size..." is what brings this to the front.

But this does not mean you have to go through a big deal. I would set up some masters - to check the machine. Some 'dummy' boxes that every - well, what - every month or two - you'll have to think about frequency - you can check the machine. As you continue checks if you find everything is OK - which probably will be the case because you'll have a rather large tolerance spread - you lengthen the cycle.

posted 19 July 2001 01:44 AM               

ISO 9004:2000 is not the requirement. ISO 9001:2000 is. ISO 9004 is a 'suggestion' document.

As you say, ISO 9004:2000, in part, states.
-> All measuring and testing, including customer satisfaction
-> surveys and questionnaires, need to be tested for
-> validity and reliability.

The word calibration in clause 6.3.6 is used with regard to "...measuring and test equipment..." I don't believe a form is equipment unless you use the word 'equipment' in a very, very broad sense.

-> i think this is what is in ISO9004-2: 1991 which was now
-> integrated in ISO9001: 2000.

I believe the above statement is incorrect.

-> when it comes to "calibration" of a form, "customer
-> satisfaction survey" for example, it can be calibrated
-> against what is the current needs of the market.

You are changing the definition of the word Calibration. You are widening it and applying it quite liberally.

You might want to take a read through: https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000119.html and https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000232.html and https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000212.html and https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000044.html - just to name a few.

You may state that you 'calibrate' your forms, but as calibration is defined in English that is not what you're doing. Testing for "...validity and reliability..." is a completely different issue.

posted 19 July 2001 03:38 PM               

Do you mean they check the actual machine or the 'test' boxes? I'm betting this is like a gas pump situation - the state comes and does a check on the machine - but - this is not typically thought of as a calibration.

-> I believe our maintenance or IE dept has some "Test
-> Boxes" they use periodically