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  ISO 9001/4:2000
  7.6 control of monitoring and measuring devices in the service industry

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Author Topic:   7.6 control of monitoring and measuring devices in the service industry
romelnar
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Posts: 22
From:alabang, philippines
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 16 July 2001 03:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for romelnar   Click Here to Email romelnar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
is "7.6 Control of Monitoring and Measuring Devices" not applicable in service industry where "instrument" or "equipment" (e.g. caliper, weighing scale) per se is not in use?

what device are they talking about here? can a form, say for example used for measuring customer satisfaction, be considered a device?

thank you very much and hope to hear from you guys.

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Rick Goodson
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posted 16 July 2001 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Goodson   Click Here to Email Rick Goodson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
romelnar

It might help in answering your question if we knew what the industry and service your organization performs.

Rick

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romelnar
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From:alabang, philippines
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posted 16 July 2001 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for romelnar   Click Here to Email romelnar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
we are in in a PROPERTY MANAGEMENT industry. we manage people, building etc. we don't use any "devices", "equipment" or "instrument" to measure anything.

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Al Dyer
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From:Lapeer, MI USA
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posted 16 July 2001 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by romelnar:
we are in in a PROPERTY MANAGEMENT industry. we manage people, building etc. we don't use any "devices", "equipment" or "instrument" to measure anything.


Maybe an additional question.

Have your customers requested registration or compliance to ISO?

I'm at somewhat of a loss as to why you would seek ISO and not sure if measurement and test equipment could be waived.

Anybody in the service industry that can help?

ASD...

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Marc Smith
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posted 16 July 2001 09:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For all intents and purposes M&TE doesn't apply. I did a service business to the 2000 version and that's what it comes down to. That does NOT mean you do not measure things. You provide a service, however you just have to look at the quality policy requirement to know that (this is just 1 example) you have to have goals which implies measurables. If you don't have measureables, you have no way of knowing if you are meeting your goals.

In short, you *probably* (there is a very remote possibility that you could have some type of measurement software - such as a computer program which tracks something - like Time-On-Line in a telephone response operation) are exempt from 7.6.

A form is controlled by your document control system and then, after it is completed, by your records control system.

Yes - I believe ISO 9001 is the correct standard.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 16 July 2001).]

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romelnar
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From:alabang, philippines
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posted 16 July 2001 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for romelnar   Click Here to Email romelnar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok guys consider this and tell me if this valid:

monitoring and measuring devices measure the parameters of a particular product (e.g. width of a wire is measured by a caliper, thermohygrograph measures temperature and relative humidity). in service industry, their product is the "service" they are providing (see "3 terms and definition" of iso9001: 2000). what are the important and critical parameters that they measure? example is " speed of response", "manner of their response", etc. say for example that these parameters are measured using a "customer satisfaction survey" form. will this form they are using be considered as monitoring and measuring device? i think the answer is "yes". then how do they verify this form? one way is to revise it in a periodic basis depending on the current environment. what is the intent? "to guarantee an accurate response". since you want them to respond in a manner that is value-adding to you, you want to guarantee yourself an accurate and true answer. by revising either the physical form or its content periodically, one can avoid a boredom in answering the survey.

i think this is what is in ISO9004-2: 1991 which was now integrated in ISO9001: 2000. remember that this new version is intended genirically and should be interpreted as how it can be adopted on any organization such as service.

[This message has been edited by romelnar (edited 16 July 2001).]

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Marc Smith
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posted 16 July 2001 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-> what are the important and critical parameters that they
-> measure?

What these parameters are depends entirely upon what the company does - and what it determines to be 'important measureables'.

-> will this form they are using be considered as monitoring
-> and measuring device?

While one could argue that a form is a 'device', and one could probably go so far as to even say the form could be 'calibrated', I really don't think 7.6 is meant to address forms. Can you imagine trying to 'calibrate' a Customer Survey' (as an example).

The largest part of it to me is I do not believe the intent is to define a form as a 'device'. During the service company registration that I was involved in it was clear they were not looking at forms as M&TE. The standard talks about "...measuring equipment..." which doesn't equate very well to a form.

One last thing - if you have a form, what standard are you going to 'calibrate' it against? You cannot 'calibrate' something unless you have a standard to compare it to. ISO 9001:2000, section 7.6 line item "a" requires traceability.

-> one way is to revise it in a periodic basis depending on
-> the current environment.

Nope - that's not a 'standard'.

Please give an example of a form which you believe to be a good example of a 'measuring device' or 'measurement equipment' and what standard (with traceability) you would 'calibrate' it against.

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svtcontour
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From:Toronto Ontario Canada
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posted 18 July 2001 01:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for svtcontour   Click Here to Email svtcontour     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am also in the service industry (courier)and have wrestled with one aspect of our process. At our location we "cube" boxes using automated equipment. For those not familiar with this process a dimensioner takes measurements from the box and assignes it to the PIN(Package ID Number). We do this not as an essential part of our process but as a process required for appropriate compensation for the size of freight we carry (billing which is not in our scope).
This process does not provide evidence of conformity to product requirements. In this case does this equipment fall under this clause?
Thx

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romelnar
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posted 19 July 2001 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for romelnar   Click Here to Email romelnar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
3rd, 4th and 5th paragraph may not be applicable but 1st and 2nd are. when it comes to "calibration" of a form, "customer satisfaction survey" for example, it can be calibrated against what is the current needs of the market. obviously, this is not traceable to any national or international measurement standard. in this case, the standard one will be using is the "market needs".

if this is not valid, then what happend to clause "6.3.6. Measurement Control" of "ISO9004-2 Guidelines for Services"?

for the benefit of those who have no copy ISO9004-2 at-hand:
"6.3.6 Measurement System Control
Procedures should be established to monitor and maintain the system used for service measurement. The controls include personnel skills, measurement procedures and any analytical models or software used for measuring and testing. All measuring and tsting, including customer satisfaction surveys and questionnaires, need to be tested for validity and reliability. The use, calibration and maintenence of all measuring and test equipment used in providing or assessing services should be controlled to provide confidence in decisions or actions based on measurement data. Measurement error should be taken when precision and/or bias requirements are not achieved."

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Marc Smith
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posted 19 July 2001 01:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by svtcontour:

This process does not provide evidence of conformity to product requirements. In this case does this equipment fall under this clause?
Thx


Probably. The reason is that if that 'dimensioner' is not correct an incorrect cost would be applied to the package.

If I was the auditor I would definitely question you about how you know that the equipment is correctly doing its job. The statement : "...a process required for appropriate compensation for the size..." is what brings this to the front.

But this does not mean you have to go through a big deal. I would set up some masters - to check the machine. Some 'dummy' boxes that every - well, what - every month or two - you'll have to think about frequency - you can check the machine. As you continue checks if you find everything is OK - which probably will be the case because you'll have a rather large tolerance spread - you lengthen the cycle.

I have not worked with a company which used this type of equipment - so I can only give my opinion.

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Marc Smith
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posted 19 July 2001 01:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-> for the benefit of those who have no copy ISO9004-2
-> at-hand:

ISO 9004:2000 is not the requirement. ISO 9001:2000 is. ISO 9004 is a 'suggestion' document.

As you say, ISO 9004:2000, in part, states.
-> All measuring and testing, including customer satisfaction
-> surveys and questionnaires, need to be tested for
-> validity and reliability.

The word calibration in clause 6.3.6 is used with regard to "...measuring and test equipment..." I don't believe a form is equipment unless you use the word 'equipment' in a very, very broad sense.

-> i think this is what is in ISO9004-2: 1991 which was now
-> integrated in ISO9001: 2000.

I believe the above statement is incorrect.

-> when it comes to "calibration" of a form, "customer
-> satisfaction survey" for example, it can be calibrated
-> against what is the current needs of the market.

You are changing the definition of the word Calibration. You are widening it and applying it quite liberally.

You might want to take a read through: https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000119.html and https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000232.html and https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000212.html and https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000044.html - just to name a few.

You may state that you 'calibrate' your forms, but as calibration is defined in English that is not what you're doing. Testing for "...validity and reliability..." is a completely different issue.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 19 July 2001).]

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svtcontour
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From:Toronto Ontario Canada
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posted 19 July 2001 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for svtcontour   Click Here to Email svtcontour     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Marc. I believe our maintenance or IE dept has some "Test Boxes" they use periodically and one of the Canadian Govt agencies (Weights & Measures Canada?) comes and certifies and recertifies the equipment.
I was just wondering how in depth and to what extent this clause applied to our situation.

Thx

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Marc Smith
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posted 19 July 2001 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-> one of the Canadian Govt agencies (Weights & Measures
-> Canada?) comes and certifies and recertifies the
-> equipment.

Do you mean they check the actual machine or the 'test' boxes? I'm betting this is like a gas pump situation - the state comes and does a check on the machine - but - this is not typically thought of as a calibration.

-> I believe our maintenance or IE dept has some "Test
-> Boxes" they use periodically

This will have to be addressed in a documented (read flow chart) calibration system with records. Do you have anyone in-house who understands calibration and the requirements of a calibration system?

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