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  ISO 9001/4:2000
  Traceability

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Author Topic:   Traceability
Russ
Forum Contributor

Posts: 31
From:Tipton, IN
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06 August 2001 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russ   Click Here to Email Russ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have found that one department here in my facility has been routinely mixing different work orders of the same part through several processes, just grabbing what is available to get an order out. Who believes that this breaks the chain of traceability, even if they are made from the same material per cert.?
Russ

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David Mullins
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Posts: 284
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06 August 2001 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
YES/NO
Please pick one, 'cause I don't have enough information to answer correctly.
When I teach staff quality auditing I use an icebreaker exercise which focuses on the human need to come to conclusions even when conclusive information has not been provided. Therefore I should stick to my guns - not enough information.

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Russ
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Posts: 31
From:Tipton, IN
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06 August 2001 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russ   Click Here to Email Russ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
David-
I have a grinder that is using parts out of one (batch) same part #, to fill the needed parts for another (batch) of that part #. Our traceability is through part #, work order (batch), and material certs. What I am asking is...does doing this break the chain of traceability for that work order when a different work order of the same part is used to fulfill the needed parts? I believe that it does indeed in fact do so, and am looking for input from others as to what they think here. Thanks....Russ

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Michael T
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Posts: 43
From:Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07 August 2001 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael T   Click Here to Email Michael T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good morning Russ,

Yes, I believe that when you are using parts from one batch # to fill an order that specifies a different batch #, you break the tracability cycle, even if the part numbers are the same. If you trace your batch #'s to material certs and if you have a defective part from an order that calls out one batch # but filled with a different batch #, you cannot trace this back to the material used (and material cert) to manufacture the part.

Hope this helps...

Cheers!!!

Mike

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Michael T
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Posts: 43
From:Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07 August 2001 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael T   Click Here to Email Michael T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by David Mullins:
YES/NO
Please pick one, 'cause I don't have enough information to answer correctly.
When I teach staff quality auditing I use an icebreaker exercise which focuses on the human need to come to conclusions even when conclusive information has not been provided. Therefore I should stick to my guns - not enough information.


Hi David,

I would be really interested in your icebreaking exercise, if you would care to share it.

Thanks!!!

Mike

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David Mullins
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Posts: 284
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08 August 2001 02:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The easy answer is that you shouldn't mix the batches. But really, we still don't have sufficient information to know.

Do you currently record materials against batches through to final product (full traceability)? This is expensive, the customer had better be requesting and paying for this service. If you're providing this traceability for free the company is getting ripped off.

If this part was being bolted onto the a space shuttle, would each part have to be traceable to its material batch? Yes.

In your case, if all the batches of the same part have material certificates that all say they are within spec, what's the big deal?

How reliable at material test certificates anyway (not much from my experiences)?

Is each batch inspected for visible compliance to the correct ID CODE for the material? Did the guy marking it at the foundry mark it correctly? What about half lengths that may not be marked?

What happens to the different material batches through you processes before they get to the grinder? Any chance of mixing?

What does the customer stipulate?
What does the Work Order state?

If the part was being used in a garden shed does anyone care about the material?

Sorry, I've ranted again.

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David Mullins
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Posts: 284
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08 August 2001 03:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The audit training icebreaker I use:
(the trainees can turn back to look at the paragraph after the one minute reading time has elapsed, nor can they look at the questions before hand. )


COMMUNICATIONS TEST
It does not take more than 15 seconds to read the following paragraph of 43 words. Read it carefully, you have one minute.

·

The householder opened the door when he heard a knock. A man pushed his way in. He asked for money. The householder opened a cashbox, the contents were scooped out and the robber sped away. A policeman was notified by the householder.

·

Please turn over this page and answer the questionnaire.



Assess the following statements
based on the paragraph contents (it's a table and doesn't come out well)


True False Information not given
1 A man knocked on the front door.
2 The man who knocked on the door pushed his way in.
3 The householder opened the door.
4 The man who knocked at the door demanded money.
5 The man who scooped up the contents of the cash box sped away.
6 The cash box contained money.
7 Did the houseowner open the cash box?
8 The robber was a man.
9 The householder notified police.
10 The police were phoned.
11 The man who pushed his way in did not ask for money.

ANSWERS:
1. ING
2. ING
3. T
4. ING
5. ING
6. ING
7. T
8. ING
9. T
10. ING
11. F

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Michael T
Forum Contributor

Posts: 43
From:Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08 August 2001 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael T   Click Here to Email Michael T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the icebreaker, David... great training tool!

If you don't mind, I would like to incorporate this into my training.

Cheers!!

Mike

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barb butrym
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Posts: 662
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 09 August 2001 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have seen similar with the option "T -F-?" and the majority of the people don't realize there is a ? option, which further complicates matters..usually have them sit once, read it alone, then as a team....it comes out them,and adds team building concepts to the exercise. Works great.

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barb butrym
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Posts: 662
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 09 August 2001 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
now back to the topic at hand....you stated traceability to batch # is your requirement, and that is violated..so you answered your own question....the other stuff will help you decide wether to change your policy, but as it stands, as you stated..YES it is a violation of your traceability policy...ISO policy? Iso doesn't have a policy, the requirement is for you/your customer/industry base to determine, not ISO.

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Dawn
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Posts: 266
From:St. Marys, PA
Registered: Sep 98

posted 09 August 2001 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dawn   Click Here to Email Dawn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Would anyone care to do a benchmarking study with me on traceability?

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David Mullins
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Posts: 284
From:Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10 August 2001 02:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Mullins   Click Here to Email David Mullins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BARB - WHOA!

POLICY! We haven't been told what documented/legal/compulsory requirements actually exist.
All Russ said was:
"Our traceability is through part #, work order (batch), and material certs. What I am asking is...does doing this break the chain of traceability for that work order when a different work order of the same part is used to fulfill the needed parts? "


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[This message has been edited by David Mullins (edited 10 August 2001).]

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Michael T
Forum Contributor

Posts: 43
From:Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10 August 2001 08:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael T   Click Here to Email Michael T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dawn:
Would anyone care to do a benchmarking study with me on traceability?

Hi Dawn,

I'm interested - what do you have in mind?

Cheers!

Mike

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 814
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10 August 2001 08:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dawn,

Count me in!

ASD...

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barb butrym
Forum Contributor

Posts: 662
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 10 August 2001 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
YES...... as briefly stated

is it over stated? maybe. Can you now create traceability to the batch actually used? Yes. Is it right? NO, is it catastrophic? probably not. can it be fixed? most likely.... Did ISO require it? no, you did.

Did i come off as touchy/pushy? sorry...didn't mean to......must be my fat arthritic fingers in all this humidity making me sound like i need to "whoa" back. I do tend to do short quick answers, not to be snappy, but because I only have a short time to read/respond.

oh, i think i see where the "whoa" came from now........you think i jumped the gun without the back upinfo, huh? Well...I took him at his word. "We use batch # For traceability" (or something similar to that wording...)....so if thats what they use, then it is violated.....is it the best thing to use? all the time? who knows!!!!! ......but if they say batch # and don't keep it, then its a nonconformance, whether its Good practice or not.

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 10 August 2001).]

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SteelMaiden
Forum Contributor

Posts: 35
From:NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10 August 2001 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteelMaiden     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dawn,

Are you going to post something in the benchmarking forum? Sounds like a good project.

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 814
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10 August 2001 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Barb,

Don't sell yourself short, you come across as a goddess!

ASD...

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Dawn
Forum Contributor

Posts: 266
From:St. Marys, PA
Registered: Sep 98

posted 10 August 2001 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dawn   Click Here to Email Dawn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will post it in the benchmarking forum(didn't realize we had one). Will everyone follow me?

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barb butrym
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Posts: 662
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 12 August 2001 09:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Al, you made my day.....

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