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Author Topic:   PPAP
Woraphot
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Posts: 16
From:Ayuttaya,Thailand
Registered: Feb 99

posted 09 March 1999 03:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Woraphot   Click Here to Email Woraphot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We have a lot discussion regarding PPAP requirements with no conclusion in our company. May I ask someone to clarify PPAP When submission is required.
" item 9 Change of source for subcontracted parts, materials or services ( e.g. heat-teating, plating )"
Does it mean "all materials" or "some specific materials that is direct material"?


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Marc Smith
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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 09 March 1999 07:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Typically when you change a supplier who influences the product quality you have to do some sort of qualification. I tell clients to call their customer's supplier activity and ask what they want because there is no black & white. It's like moving a machine - some you can move without requalifying and some you can't. Only the customer's suppier activity can tell you for sure. It is also services and subcontracted processes (eg: plating). So - basically it means both as I understand it.

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Howard Atkins
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posted 09 March 1999 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Howard Atkins   Click Here to Email Howard Atkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We are producing a part with material defined by a GM standard. This standard names 3 seperate suppliers and their material by name. We wanted to qualify a second supplier and we asked about PPAP, Delphi said to us they dont know what to submit as noone had ever asked.
In audits we have had the material standard that we use correlated with the PPAP.
The change of material or process can be a pronlem as the next tier does not want to authorise a change as he then has to rePPAP himself and this can be expensive if there are complicated tests to do.
We try and qualify at PPAP 2 alternatives which means submitting 2 lots of samples and material certificates and reports, the CP, FMEA and flow chart stay the same.

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Woraphot
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Posts: 16
From:Ayuttaya,Thailand
Registered: Feb 99

posted 11 March 1999 05:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Woraphot   Click Here to Email Woraphot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Marc & Howard,

Thanks for you comments, At this moment we are in-process of QS-9000 implementation and all our customers are not tier 1 supplier. We have difficulty to deal with over 50 customers to fully comply with all PPAP requirements since they are not aware PPAP requirements. For instance, all customers never provide any approved source lists of materials except couple critical materials are specified in each work order. Actually we have our own approved suppliers list and no customer ask for it. Once the new supplier is added into the list, the customer approval process will be done depended on some specific materials defined by customer specification or work order.
Could it assume that customers accept the current approved suppliers list as long as they still continue to send the order? or we have to send all current approved suppliers list to all customers for approval to show the evidence to auditor.
Any suggestions or clarification would be appreciate.

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Jada
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Posts: 26
From:Melbourne, Australia
Registered: Mar 99

posted 16 March 1999 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jada   Click Here to Email Jada     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Khun Woraphot,

I trust that life is still good in Ayutthaya. In terms of PPAP submission to your customer, remember that customer is defined as GM, Ford and Chrysler and any other company subscribing to QS 9000. This means for suppliers, they must submit PPAP to AAT (Ford/Mazda), GM and Delphi. If you submit PPAP to any other customer I can guarantee that they will have no idea what PPAP is, so my recommendation is don't send PPAP to any other customers. On the other hand if you do not supply to any of these customers you should select 1 customer and prepare all PPAP documention, this will provide the registrar with objective evidence that you know what you are doing. MMC and Honda are a good customer for this, there level of knowledge of QS 9000 is OK.

Has Songkran happened yet or is it in April.

I hope this helps

John Adamek

[Note: This message has been edited by admin]

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Christian Lupo
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From:Auburn, NY
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posted 17 March 1999 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Christian Lupo   Click Here to Email Christian Lupo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you have automotive customers you must submit a PPAP to them. If not you must have a waiver letter from the customer that says you do not need to submit a PPAP. There is no getting around PPAP. If you have an automotive customer you need to submit a PPAP for that part, before you start sending production quantities to that supplier. Keep in mind that PPAP is part specific and therefore it is impossible to have one PPAP that is acceptable for all customers.

Eventhough you can submit PPAP for a family of parts, it is unlikely that one PPAP would satisfy all automotive customers.

Having said that it is not atypical for 90% of PPAP for one customer be applicable for another customer ordering the same part. But you still need 2 PPAPs.

PPAP is not an option. A lot of people think QS-9000 is one document. Its actually three: QS-9000, PPAP, and QSA.

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Woraphot
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From:Ayuttaya,Thailand
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posted 19 March 1999 06:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Woraphot   Click Here to Email Woraphot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your advise, Can any one describe the scope of PPAP Section 2 When summission is required on the following
a)item 3 state that " Product modified by an engineering change to design records,specifications or materials"
b)item 7 state that " Any change in process or method of manufacture"
c)The last line Who is responsible part approval activity.

Thanks,

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Batman
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From:Kane, PA 16735
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posted 19 March 1999 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Batman   Click Here to Email Batman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Woraphot,
'Product modified by enginering change to design records, specification, or...' is usually pertaining to the product. This also usually means a drawing or specification or blueprint change by you (if you are design responsible) or by your customer. PPAPs must be to the latest revision of your drawing. The intent is to verify capability of the change in particular and the changed product in general. Some of our customers require a PPAP for any revision to their drawings. The level of submission varies as to the extent of the change. Some changes are only words, without any impact to the part itself, and causes no manufacturing changes. Some are more extensive.

'Any change to the process...' basically means if you change the manufacturing process you should again validate that the change had no negative impact on the product. A PPAP is again required. Some of the changes are listed - new or different machinery, tooling, location, etc.

Responsible part approval activity is your customer. Someone at your customer's location should sign the PPAP as approved or not and you should retain a copy of that approval. If you do not have a contact at your customer, find one who has the responsibility. Some of our customers require PPAPs to be delivered to their receiving inspection, who then forward any evaluation to a signatory there.

Hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by Batman (edited 03-19-99).]

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Woraphot
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Posts: 16
From:Ayuttaya,Thailand
Registered: Feb 99

posted 22 March 1999 04:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Woraphot   Click Here to Email Woraphot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Batman,
May I ask another question regarding "any change to the process......" When we change in some machine parameters or some work instructions. Is PPAP still required?

Thanks,

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Batman
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posted 22 March 1999 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Batman   Click Here to Email Batman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Operator instructions, including adjustment instructions, are considered part of the normal process, so making adjustments to pressures or temperatures to maintain process control, or statistical control, or the like, does not require a PPAP. New tooling, for instance, or starting up a process after an "extended" length of downtime, putting current approved tooling in a different machine, are examples of changes that need a PPAP. Basically, the manufacturing process that was in place at PPAP time is the "current process." If you change from the "current process," you have a new process, and PPAP is usually required.

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Woraphot
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Posts: 16
From:Ayuttaya,Thailand
Registered: Feb 99

posted 23 March 1999 01:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Woraphot   Click Here to Email Woraphot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Batman,
Thanks a lot for your clarification regarding PPAP requirements.

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