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  APQP and PPAP
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Author Topic:   ppap
bunda
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posted 11 June 2001 08:29 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
im interested in knowing whether a PPAP is the same process as a ISIR.

Anyone out there can help/

Ta

Martin

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Marc Smith
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posted 11 June 2001 08:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes - they're more or less the same.

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Howard Atkins
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posted 12 June 2001 01:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Howard Atkins   Click Here to Email Howard Atkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISIR is generally used by VDA. According to VDA 2 which is the relevant document.
The demands for documentation are usually less and there are different forms.
Go to http://iqualitys.com/pdf for details on requirements and forms for submission.

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Marc Smith
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posted 12 June 2001 06:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree that they are different in some ways, however they are as alike as they are different. Early on, as I understand it, ISIR (also called ISR and several other acronymns) was just a layout inspection.

I first ran into ISIR (Initial Sample Inspection Report) requirements during the military manufacturing phase of my life. What comprised an ISIR in the 1970's and 1980's was dependent upon the specific contract and the specific customer. Sometimes it was just a layout. Sometimes, as in the automotive PPAP, it included inspection and test data and/or run-off data and/or sample parts, etc.

-> I've been asked to do a contract at a firm which require
-> PPAP's being finished, I've actually performed the PPAP
-> process so at this stage would not know were to begin,
-> you say they are similar to ISIR that's fine and I have
-> an understanding of the FMEA process (not brilliant but
-> okay!) am I worrying to much about nothing or will all be
-> okay and fit into place. My boss has every confidence in
-> sending me into the big wide world - I'm a contracted
-> Quality Engineer who recently completed a 12 month
-> contract as a Quality Systems Engineer (ISO 9000) NOT
-> doing FMEA's though just 9000 stuff.

Well, PPAP is what your customer has defined for you. The impotant part is you go through the APQP process as dictated for a part or product. PPAP is the submission of the results - runoff data, layout, sample parts, etc. But like the way I learned military ISIR, not every APQP process is the same. I once had a customer who produced about 5 specialty parts for GM every year. Their APQP process (and thus their PPAP) was quite different than that of a customer which supplied over 1M struts a year to Ford.

Each APQP is different and since PPAP is simply submission of data from the APQP process, etc., each PPAP is also different. An example is that a process FMEA and control plan is required to be produced during the APQP process. PPAP is where you submit the FMEA.

See /APQP/

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Sam
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posted 12 June 2001 08:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sam   Click Here to Email Sam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ford used the term ISIR before QSS9000, some people at Ford still do.
Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, Nisson all refer to the term ISIR. All have varying documentation requirements. Toyota, for example, requires customer approved BOM, Drawings and packaging data prior to ISIR submission.

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Howard Atkins
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posted 12 June 2001 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Howard Atkins   Click Here to Email Howard Atkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have only seen this in reference to German companies, thanks for the info

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Marc Smith
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posted 12 June 2001 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know Honda has one - as Sam pointed out. I remember Honda had a manual, but you still had to confirm and agree with your supplier SQA exaactly what they wanted. An example is parts retention. If you make hoods for cars you space gets limited as opposed to say a brake cylinder. Bottom line is - contract your customer SQA (or other equivalent contact) to define exactly what they want. Like Honda, I suspect Toyota, et al. also have base manuals.

ISRs (ISIRs) are a very old concept.

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