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  APQP and PPAP
  When is PPAP required?

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Author Topic:   When is PPAP required?
MSAFAI
Forum Contributor

Posts: 42
From:Tehran - IRAN
Registered: May 2001

posted 28 July 2001 01:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MSAFAI   Click Here to Email MSAFAI     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everybody,

Anybody knows what they mean by the following phrase in the PPAP manual?

".. PPAP is required in the case of:
Refurbishment and Rearrangement of tooling and equipment.."

Do they mean any change in the floor plan layout?

Regards

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4367
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 28 July 2001 03:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suggest you do a Search (all forums) here in the forums using the key words 'ppap required' (without the 's). I came up with more than 30 threads on PPAP requirements. I believe in at least 1 this was specifically discussed.

To summarize, you have to look at what you are doing and assess the effect(s) on the process. Contact your customer SQA and present your proposal based upon your asssessment. You may propose doing a partial PPAP - but again, it depends entirely upon what you change.

-> Do they mean any change in the floor plan layout?

Let's take "...Rearrangement of tooling and equipment..."

If you have a 50 ton press, you're going to have to go through a run-off, at the very least, with a complete layout on one or more parts.

On the other hand, if you have a small table where an employee puts a label on parts by hand, if you move that table it probably will not affect the process so you probably will have nothing to submit. And in a case as simple as this, I doubt it would even be necessary to contact the SQA. I would probably just do it.

Refurbishment may or may not trigger a re-PPAP. Again, one has to look at the situation as a whole.

The key is: What effect will this have on the process and product.

A floor plan change implies movement / rearrangement of equipment. So yes - changing where equipment is located could trigger a re-PPAP requirement. Depends upon what is moved.

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MSAFAI
Forum Contributor

Posts: 42
From:Tehran - IRAN
Registered: May 2001

posted 28 July 2001 06:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MSAFAI   Click Here to Email MSAFAI     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks a lot Marc,

Appreciate your help.

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Al Dyer
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Posts: 814
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 28 July 2001 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This clause requires notification to the customer if you change the peocess flow as noted on the process flow initiated during PPAP.

You can move an entire production cell within your facility, but as long as the process flow within that cell is not affected, there is no need for customer notification.

ASD...

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4367
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 28 July 2001 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-> You can move an entire production cell within your
-> facility, but as long as the process flow within that
-> cell is not affected, there is no need for customer
-> notification.

This is true if there is no 'location sensitive' equipment / station(s) within the cell. Whether or not a partial re-PPAP is required is not simply an issue of process sequence. When there is 'location sensitive' equipment / station(s) in the cell a partial re-PPAP is typically required.

That is why I used the press example above as an 'extreme' example. Large presses can stamp differently when location is changed. The characteristics of the foundation it is placed on are important. There are a number of considerations, not the least of which is vibration characteristics, which in part will change when the base on which the press rests is changed. A change in the vibration characteristics of the press can change the way the tools mate (one effect). While the press made acceptable parts in its old location, it is not a definite fact that if you move it it still will.

Bear in mind that typically you are not looking at a complete re-PPAP of the entire process (the sum of all sub-processes), but rather a partial re-PPAP - re-PPAP of the affected sub-process.

Also remember what is really going to happen. If you move a machine or a whole cell (all sub-processes which make up that cell) you're going through the motions anyway. You're going to have to get everything set up and do run-offs. Surely one would not move a cell and simply say "GO!" unless the sub-processes are simple and neither equipment nor process requirements are 'location sensitive'. The question is more of what the SQA will want sent in as evidence.

One more 'extreme' case. You decide to change location of storage of certain finished materials. The materials are metal. When PPAPed, the storage location is inside the 'heart' of the facility. You decide to move the storage to the shipping dock area which is open to the outside air most of the year. Your plant is in Ohio and you make the change in January. In July, which is humid and hot, the customer starts receiving rusted product. This never happened before. The question of 'what changed' is hidden, at least temporarily, as the association with the January change would probably not be the first hypothesis of the problem root cause - "...heck we did that way back in January...".

The Bottom Line: When something is moved, one wants to take a long, hard look at possible / potential effects of that move. Even if it's just a storage area.

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 814
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 28 July 2001 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree Marc, In past lives I have included in process procedures, that when there is a change in a cell, other than what is expected and already considered during APQP, that the APQP be revisited and revised as needed.

If there is then a revision the customer is notified. The only thing I have ever been required to do is issue a new warrant.

Revisiting the APQP and including the customer is a good business practice and builds up a certain level of trust with the customer.

ASD...

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