The Elsmar Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums More Free Files Forum Discussion Thread Post Attachments Listing Elsmar Cove Discussion Forums Main Page
Welcome to what was The Original Cayman Cove Forums!
This thread is carried over and continued in the Current Elsmar Cove Forums

Search the Elsmar Cove!

Wooden Line
This is a "Frozen" Legacy Forum.
Most links on this page do NOT work.
Discussions since 2001 are HERE

Owl Line
The New Elsmar Cove Forums   The New Elsmar Cove Forums
  Nonconformance and Corrective Action Systems
  Root Cause Analysis

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Root Cause Analysis
ISO GUY
Forum Contributor

Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 19 April 2001 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Help! What can anyone tell me about Root Cause Analysis. I need some type of training to be able to give to our company.

IP: Logged

Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 19 April 2001 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Take a read through the 8-D guide preview at /courses.html

IP: Logged

SteelMaiden
Forum Contributor

Posts: 28
From:NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 19 April 2001 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteelMaiden     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Technicomp has some good training that I have used in the past for problem solving. I know that isn't exactly what you asked for, but to my mind it goes pretty much hand in hand.

For root cause analysis, you need to remember these steps:
1. Define the problem. The problem as seen by the initiator may not be the "Whole" problem, it may not be anything more than a minor symptom.
WHAT went or could go wrong
WHO is affected, try to include every possibility
Is it sporadic or continuous, WHEN does it happen?
HOW did it happen (see step 2, this is the beginning of the identification of root cause)
2. Identify the cause. WHY did it happen, why did it not get caught etc. A lot of systems work using the 5Ys. Ask yourself why after each why you come up with for at least five whys. In other words, until you can no longer come up with any more answers.

A great way to use root cause analysis is to get others involved when you perform it. Get input from all or many departments.

If you do a good job of getting many areas involved and show that the company (management) is interested in looking into change and implementing what they can, you often end up with a staff of people who find it is much more satisfying to identify the root causes before a nonconformance happens (preventive actions).

IP: Logged

ISO GUY
Forum Contributor

Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 19 April 2001 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well thats a big part of the problem, we don't have Management Support, hence that is why we received a NC during our Surviellance Audit to element 4.1. The feel that if we have root cause analysis that people will respond to the CAR's, they said the reason they dont now is becuase they don't know how to determine root cause, at which point i had to bite my tounge. I have explaind to people that you need to ask why as many times as it takes to find out why it really happen. I will take a look at the 8-D in the fourm Marc, and thanks for your input also Steel it was very helpful.

IP: Logged

Randy
Forum Wizard

Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 19 April 2001 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Root Cause Analysis most of the time is used to fix blame. This is not as it should be. RCA involves identifying those factors which contributed to the occurance of an event and then determining the primary or major factor that lead up to it. Stay away from personalities and only look at fact.

IP: Logged

SteelMaiden
Forum Contributor

Posts: 28
From:NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 20 April 2001 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteelMaiden     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randy, you are right, like any tool, root cause analysis is often used for purposes that were improper, I myself often use table knives as screwdrivers. That doesn't make it right, and it sure isn't the best use.

ISO Guy, I've been exactly where you are. And I do mean exactly, we were a hair's breadth from loosing our cert due to commitment issues. Can I help you in any way?

[This message has been edited by SteelMaiden (edited 20 April 2001).]

IP: Logged

ISO GUY
Forum Contributor

Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 20 April 2001 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steel tahnks for the offer I do appreciate it. The only way you could help me is if you know of any companies in the Upstate NY are that are looking for a Quality Manager. I know what needs to be done, I have showed and explained to them what they need to do, do they listen no of course not. To tell you the truth if they lose their Cert. I could give a rats a$$, it will only hurt them. I was told by our Registrar (the auditors) that they were very confident in my abilities and knowledge, but they had questions abouit our Quality Managers at ou other facilities. The did ask me why I was still working here (they even told my upper Mgmt this), I told them I am not the type of person to jump ship and also that I have only been with the Company 1 1/2 years and I dont want to make it seem that i jump around fom job to job. I approached my boss for a raise at least what the incompetent QA managers of our other facilities (who have not been here as long as I have)and I was told I would need to put on a paper a justification for my raise before they would even consider it. I should just tell them give me a raise or I will leave and you will not have a prayer of maintaining your cert. LOL.

IP: Logged

SteelMaiden
Forum Contributor

Posts: 28
From:NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 20 April 2001 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteelMaiden     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good Luck ISO Guy. Don't know too many companies in your area...

As I said, I have been where you are (including the wage thing), we did manage to clear up the problems for the most part but in the long run, I put in for the first available transfer I could after we were out of danger of cert loss. I ended up with more than I had asked my previous mgt for, and all in all we are all happier. As my dear old Granny used to say, "This too shall pass"...but she was usually talking about something my brother swallowed. Have a good one!

IP: Logged

Randy
Forum Wizard

Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 20 April 2001 05:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey ISOGUY, I know how ya feel bud. I'm looking like crazy. I was just turned down for a position to coordinate EMS implementation for a multi-site company. They said they found someone more qualified? I'm an EMS-LA and serve on the Advisory Board to a Registrar for crimeny sake. I kinda know what it may take to get registered. I know just a wee bit about the subject. I'm no expert, but at least I hope I've proved I'm competent in the field . I don't know what management thinks sometimes.

Do like me, try www.monster.com , www.headhunter.com , www.hotjobs.com , www.flipdog.com and others. I saw all kinds of Quality jobs on the ASQ site also.

Good luck

Randy

[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 20 April 2001).]

IP: Logged

Greenraisin
Forum Contributor

Posts: 13
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 23 April 2001 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greenraisin   Click Here to Email Greenraisin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The biggest selling point one can make to a conscientious management is that causes of problems are more expensive the closer they occur to the customer. In other words, the futher down the line they happen, the more it costs to fix it and that is pretty self evident.

Every effect has one or more causes and my experience tells me it's usually more than one by the time it manifests itself. Prevention is always the best route and a thorough understanding of cause and effect in your particular process will save a lot of time and effort (MONEY) in mitigating problems before they occur.

Wilson, P.F., Dell, L.D. and Anderson, G.F. 1993. Root Cause Analysis. Milwaukee: ASQC Quality Press is a good book to get info from. I'm not sure it's still available. Kepner Tregoe has some course materials that you could look through. There are several other packages out there that aer basically the same but packaged differently. Sort of like the differences in gurus!

Hope this helps some. Let us know what you end up doing and how you get there!

------------------
See you down life's highway!

Eric

IP: Logged

Steven Truchon
Forum Contributor

Posts: 89
From:Fort Lauderdale, FL USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 27 April 2001 10:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steven Truchon   Click Here to Email Steven Truchon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ISO GUY, I hope what I will try to relay will be helpful. I am currently at the tail end of this process and I am seeing light at the end of the long dark tunnel. Here goes:

Our company had gotten so accustomed to the quick-fix mentality that those band-aids became known as the corrective actions taken with a "logical" root cause derived after the action. This was all neatly documented on a single 8D form and kept on file for audit purposes. It got to the point that sorting operations with fulltime employees dedicated to sorting were included in the process flow. Trouble was the resulting numbers (data) still didnt lie. Rework, scrap, labor was still creating internal ppm's in the low 5 figures. When I studied the MRB reports from the previous year I noticed that the stated non-conformities were consistent and reoccuring. I then did a cost study of what appeared to be the biggest offenders and used that data to choose my battle so to speak. Part 123 was to be my test case. My process followed this route:

1. Identfy the problem or symptom
2. What goals are affected - whats the area of impact
3. Interim actions/Band-aids/Quick Fix = Containment (temporary but necessary)
4. I gather a handful of peers with various process knowledge in a brief one-on-one with each. I couldnt coordinate a meeting so I had to be the runner and piece this together for our "brainstorming". No thought or idea was refused, in fact all ideas were listed as Possible Causes.
5. Going through the list, I assemble available data that would validate/invalidate each possible cause. In other words, if Cause "A" results in 5/1000 discrepancies then I move on, but when Cause "B" impacts 425/1000, I have a contender. So I then isolate my primary offenders which are now backed by data. These then are my "root cause" candidates.
6. Now, to respond to the chosen few, my "team" and I (through another tour of interviews) list alternatives or possible solutions to each "root cause" candidate.
7. Now the deciding function - Will the possible solution work? I give it a rating of 0 thru 5 where 0=None, 1=Very Low, 2=Low, 3=Average, 4=High, 5=Very High
8. Feasible? Can it be done? I rating the possible solution for feasibility just as I did in step 7.
9. The Rating! Out of a possible 25 points I get a score by multiplying #7 x #8. Example: Possible solution - Add more overtime to meet deadlines. Will this solution work? score=4 Is it feasible? score=1 (staff already on too much overtime) Rating for this candidate=4 out of a possible 25. This looks to be a poor solution.
10. Rate all of the possible solutions this way and you'll find that a few will stand out as potentially effective approaches to take. As a "preventive" move, consider all other problems stemming from this primary cause (backed by data) and a highly rated solution. Try to gather cost data on the other potentially affected similar problems. Determine an approximate cost to test and implement the solutions across the board and you will have documented a cost justification for the work that needs to be done. In fact, you should be able to forecast a realistic cost reduction for your company. And you will have also (hopefully) documented a proven process (root cause analysis being the primer) that can sell the need to back your RCA and CAPA efforts with the necessary resources.
I know of few breathing individuals in upper management that can turn their heads away when you hit them with $$$$$$$ backed with proof.

As I said in the begining, I am at the tailend of round one of what appears to be a successful effort and I foresee some positive changes in the way we do business.

I know the method I just explained may be fundamental to the experienced and guru's in our forums but having just learned this from a consultant friend and seeing it working compelled me to share it.

I have a simple form that makes this all very easy to manage and document and track progress with a baseline/target/and 1-3-6 month measurements to verify effectiveness. If anyone would like to see it, email me and I'll gladly share it.

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time (USA)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Hop to:

Contact Us | The Elsmar Cove Home Page

Your Input Into These Forums Is Appreciated! Thanks!


Main Site Search
Y'All Come Back Now, Ya Hear?
Powered by FreeBSD!Made With A Mac!Powered by Apache!