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  Measurement, Test and Calibration
  R&R, destructive methods

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Author Topic:   R&R, destructive methods
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 3
From:The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01 November 2000 04:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bas&Jasper   Click Here to Email Bas&Jasper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We are two students who are conducting a Gage R&R study on destructive methods for a glassfactory.
Has anybody found a way to measure gage R&R for these kind of testing mehtods??
Or does anybody know an alternitive method to measure destructive testing with the same output as gage R&R???


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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA

posted 26 November 2000 09:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't answer off hand, however take a read through and

Anyone have any thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 21 May 2001).]

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David Drue Stauffer
Forum Contributor

Posts: 25
From:St. Louis, MO63132United States
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 03 January 2001 09:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Drue Stauffer   Click Here to Email David Drue Stauffer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
According to the rules that apply for a gage R&R Study, the test needs to be "REPEATABLE".
ANY destructive test is not repeatable and therefore is beyond the capability of the R&R test.

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Tommy VanHorne
posted 16 January 2001 08:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although destructive testing precludes 'repeatability' as defined in classical R&R, that does not negate the capability of determining measurement error. Many guidelines exist in the chemical industry, as in qualifying a lab for EPA testing. Find some of Dr. Wheeler's writings, Evaluating Measurement Systems in particular.

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posted 24 January 2001 01:25 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have had some success with R&R studies using destructive test methods. I use Don Wheeler's methods, and in one of his books he validates the concept of destuctive testing. He states that we have to make an assumption that samples taken near one another or consecutively (depending on your process) are identical.

It's easy for the products we test (adhesive products made in web/roll form). We just test areas a few inches over on a web. It may not be so easy for other processes.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA

posted 21 May 2001 05:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Francois B.
posted 25 May 2001 06:37 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First, it is important to note that even if the gauge is destructive, there is a measurement error and it is needed to evaluate it ! Doing nothing is the worst case.

We have developped a new method to evaluate repeatability on destructive gauge, it will be published this year in Quality Engineering (ASQ). It is a two steps procedure. The variance of the error (repeatability) is confonded with the variances of the locations is the first step, and with the parts in the second step. Using additivity of the variance, solving a simple equation give the variance of the error.

It is then possible to estimate standard %R&R and %P/T.


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