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  Measurement, Test and Calibration
  Verification /Calibration ? s.o.s.

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Author Topic:   Verification /Calibration ? s.o.s.
Pablo Walle
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Monterrey,Mexico
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 28 February 2001 12:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pablo Walle   Click Here to Email Pablo Walle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Could anyone tell me where I can find "exact definitions" for both calibration and verification? I've found some, but they're quite different. NIST and CENAM (Mexico) show only the services they offer.

Thank ya all for your help.

Adios.

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Marc Smith
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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 01 March 2001 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm prettty sure there's a thread or two in one or more of the forums on the 'differences'. Have you done a search here in the forums?

First take a read through https://elsmar.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000232.html

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Pablo Walle
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From:Monterrey,Mexico
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 01 March 2001 03:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pablo Walle   Click Here to Email Pablo Walle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your help. I agree that calibration is a compairsson to a higher standard. What about verification?. Is an specific definition for this word in ISO; I've seen this word as a part of calibration definition. Actually, our quality system enounces both as if they were different.
Gracias de nuevo.

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Marc Smith
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posted 01 March 2001 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the link I gave above, I think verification is discussed. Verification is where, for example, someone checks their ESD wrist strap. They're not calibrating it, just verifying it is within tolerance. The cal lab does calibrate the wrist strap tester.

Another might be tape rules in some shops. They have folks compare them to a steel ruler on the wall once a month, for example. That's verification.

Adjustment = Calibration
No Adjustment = Verification

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Dan Larsen
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Posts: 137
From:Sussex, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02 March 2001 09:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Larsen   Click Here to Email Dan Larsen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Adjustment = Calibration
No Adjustment = Verification

Marc,

I used to think the same thing, and write my systems using this approach. Then I had a gaging wiz for an auditor who informed me that the key was traceability, not necessarily adjustment. If the "verification" was done with a traceable standard, it qualified as a "calibration".

I found this more than confusing, but if you consider what the cal houses do, it kind of makes sense. If they check the gage with a traceable standard and its OK, it's still considered calibration. If they make an adjustment, they check again after to make sure the adjustment was correct. Now it's an adjust and calibrate.

I still don't have clear in my mind what verification is with the possible exception of a check without traceability (perhaps only in terms of the paper trail).

BTW, even though I had that discussion with that auditor and came away from it confused, I still consider and write systems using the thought process that you describe.

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Rick Goodson
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From:Wuakesha, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 02 March 2001 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Goodson   Click Here to Email Rick Goodson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dan,

I recently had an SGS auditor inform me that verification is a check of the instrument done outside of the normal calibration system. i.e. Scales are calibrated on quarterly basis. Every morning an operator uses a "weight" that is close to the mid point of the normal operating range of the scale to assure that the scale is "within tolerance". A simple record of who, and when is kept. If the scale is "in tolerance" nothing happens. If the scale is "out of tolerance", calibration services is notified. Tolerance is defined as something less than the actual tolerance range of the scale.

Regards,

Rick

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Marc Smith
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posted 02 March 2001 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah - I understand your qualification of my simple equation.

I've never had a problem with this with a registrar. I advise clients to avoid the word 'verification' with respect to calibration in any documents and in their 'local language'. It's just not worth a pissing match with an auditor over the definition of the word 'verification' with respect to calibration.

Considering the calibre of quality professionals who make up these forums, and considering how few can articulate the differences with accompanying majority concurrence (as you said, even you are still 'confused' about the differences, it's obvious that the gray area is not going away.

Actually, my perception is anything other than an ajustment is a verification.

For the heck of it, here's the dictionary definition of calibration:

1. to assign, verify, or correct the graduated markings on (a quantitative measuring instrument such as a thermometer).

Here's for verification:

Definition 1. the act of verifying.
╩ ╩Crossref. Syn. ╩ confirmation
Definition 2. the condition of being verified.
╩ ╩Crossref. Syn. confirmation
Definition 3. a formal act or statement that confirms the truth or correctness of something.

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Marc Smith
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posted 02 March 2001 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's how I understand it, Rick. But again, I've seen so many auditors who want to get into a definition derby it isn't worth using the word 'verification'. It's easier to say the employee is 'doing a daily check' or such.

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Jim Biz
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Posts: 275
From:ILLINOIS
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 02 March 2001 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Biz   Click Here to Email Jim Biz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is what I get from reading Q9000:2000 definitions:

As I understand it:

"Verification" - is
Confirmation by providing "objective evidence" that a specified requirement has been met.

"Confirmation" itself can be any of the following activities.
1) Recalulating tolerances
2) Comparing a new design spec with a
similar one
3) Testing to demonstrate results
(functional or destructive)
4) Reviewing documents before they are used.

[This message has been edited by Jim Biz (edited 02 March 2001).]

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Pablo Walle
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From:Monterrey,Mexico
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 02 March 2001 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pablo Walle   Click Here to Email Pablo Walle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are the definitions I have
1)From MDC (Management Developig Center):
- Calibration: Comparisson to a standard
under specified
conditions
(temperature and humidity)
- Verification: Comparisson to a standard
without taking care of
environmental conds.
- Adjustment: Set an instrument back to
acceptable measuring readings
either verification or
calibration need to be
performed.

2)From our ISO administrator:
- Calibration: Comparisson to a higher
standard within all the
instrument range.
- Verification: Comparisson to a higher
standard in one specific
value.
- Adjustment: Set an instrument back to
acceptable measuring readings
either verification or
calibration need to be
performed after any
adjustment.

As you can see adjusting is different than calibrating.
Marc, on december 26,2000 you posted:
"...calibration is always a documented method of verifying the performance of a
> measuring instrument, usually under controlled conditions, and always by
> comparing it in some way to a specified standard.
It's a comparison to a 'defined' standard - I agree 100%."

and now you say :
Adjustment = Calibration
No Adjustment = Verification.

I think is like Bible, everyone accepts is true but there are different interpretations.

Regards.

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Dan Larsen
Forum Contributor

Posts: 137
From:Sussex, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02 March 2001 06:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Larsen   Click Here to Email Dan Larsen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heck, from the way this thread is going it looks like we're all right until the auditor says "No you're not!"

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