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  Sarasohn - Ever Heard of Him?

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Author Topic:   Sarasohn - Ever Heard of Him?
Marc Smith
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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 11 July 2000 07:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you haven't, take a read at: www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20000525.html

Also archived as: Sarasohn.pdf in the pdf_files directory.

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Andy Bassett
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From:Donegal Ireland
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posted 12 July 2000 08:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andy Bassett   Click Here to Email Andy Bassett     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No i have never heard of him. Is it true?

Actually (I know i am going to get eaten now) I always found Deming a bit over-rated, i suspected he was a little contradictory in his writings and statements. Could i be the only person that has twice failed to get to the end of 'Out of the Crisis'?.

He did produce another book which was basically written from the point of view of an attendant at one of his seminars, and this was a lot more digestable (Could it have been written by Bill Latzko?).

Regards

------------------
Andy B

[This message has been edited by Andy Bassett (edited 12 July 2000).]

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Roger Eastin
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posted 12 July 2000 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Roger Eastin   Click Here to Email Roger Eastin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're right - Deming was not a great writer (and he could ramble if you ever saw him in person). However, his ideas, though not original, were "right on the mark". Overrated? No, I don't think so. Any one of his points has plenty of evidence in American management. I can't speak for the management in your country, but Deming, for us peasants, was (is) a breath of fresh air!

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Don Watt
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From:Notts,United Kingdom
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posted 12 July 2000 04:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Don Watt   Click Here to Email Don Watt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know about the accuracy of the article, I certainly have never thought of Deming as a master of self promotion.
For those who are interested in following up by reading Sarasohn's work there's a copy of his manual written for the Japanese on the Deming Electronic Network
http//deming.ces.clemson.edu/pub/den/giants sarasohn.htm

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Kevin Mader
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From:Seymour, CT USA
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posted 12 July 2000 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don,

Well put. It is one writer's perspective. The reader of any article or print must keep this in mind. Do you believe everything your read? I don't. However, I believe that there may be some truth with what the article states.

In many books written by Japanese Quality contributors, (Kaizen, by Imai comes to mind immediately) I have noticed it mentioned (by the author or one of his sources) that many of the ideas and concepts that Deming is noted for, were in fact, other folks contributions. Who is right? I don't know. Still, it doesn't matter much to me, so long as I can agree with the concept presented, not so much the presentor.

I enjoyed the article. Interesting to me. I also can't help but point out that Deming gives plenty of credit to many folks, even those folks he can't remember (their name anyway) are given proper credit (i.e. some person in one of his 4 day seminar makes a statement that makes a passage in any of his books). This does not seem to be consistent with a self proclaimer, IMHO. Juran has been accused of the same thing. That one doesn't bother me much either. I'd rather focus on the concepts.

Regards,

Kevin

Back to the group...

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John C
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From:Cork City, Ireland
Registered: Nov 98

posted 12 July 2000 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for John C   Click Here to Email John C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think there is a whole lot of nonsense talked about the Japanese way to success. In my experience, dealing with Japanese companies, they base their sucess on highly enducated and committed engineers, attention to detail, practical management and smart, long term investment. By comparison, Western managers are always on the look out for the main chance, in their careers, in their goals and in their short term tactics.
I've always said, only half jokingly, that the Japanese spread these quality fads to keep us occupied while they left us behind by good engineering. Let's face it, statistical variation was no secret in the '50s, either to the Japanese or to anyone else; "It's not what you do but the way that you do it". And look, 50 years later, who is applying Deming's theories from the top down? Not many.
I suggest that what Deming brought back from Japan, about management, was more significant than what whoever it was took to Japan about variation. We have to assume that that was where he learned it.
What I like about Deming is the way he lays into management and makes them responsible, as opposed to every other guru who takes responsibility from management and gives it to specialists. Whether that was the reason he is rated so high, I can't say, but that's one reason why he deserves to be.
rgds, John C

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Kevin Mader
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From:Seymour, CT USA
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posted 12 July 2000 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't worry Andy. No one bites here that I know of.

I think the wise person leaves themself open to new information. It is necessary for developing one's theory. When a person aligns themself with a 'guru', hopefully it is done because they find that their own theory closely resembles a guru's (coincidence). At least, that's what I think. I started out a firm believer in Feigenbaum. Now, a Deming disciple (I am still heavily influenced by many other gurus and non-gurus). Maybe it will change again when I am influenced by a new piece of information and my theory changes? Who knows?

As a Deming disciple, I appreciate the fact that there are folks out there who don't see eye to eye with every Deming concept (I don't either). How else can theory be refined without testing it or putting it against another one? It is what strengthens your theory, or causes one to reevaluate, and perhaps adopt the new one. Perhaps it is a blend of both? You don't need to cringe to speak your mind, but I appreciate your sensitivity to your reading audiance.

Regards,

Kevin

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Laura M
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From:Rochester, NY US
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posted 12 July 2000 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anyone out there read "Mind and the World Order" that Deming sites 4 times in Out of the Crisis?

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Kevin Mader
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posted 12 July 2000 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry, I haven't.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 12 July 2000 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Mader:
Don't worry Andy. No one bites here that I know of.
I do!

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 12 July 2000).]

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Claes Gefvenberg
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From:Sweden
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posted 13 July 2000 05:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Claes Gefvenberg   Click Here to Email Claes Gefvenberg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi,

Nope... Never heard of him before but this was an interesting tale, so I think I'll try to find out more now.

We have always been told that Japan eagerly adapted the ideas of Deming and others after the war, and then proceeded to blow the west off the court....

Then their astonishing success bullied us into accepting these ideas.

This story seems to indicate that they too had to be shoved pretty hard in the right direction.

So: Some kind of pressure seems to be neccessary for radical changes to take place.

/Claes

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Laura M
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From:Rochester, NY US
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posted 13 July 2000 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back to Mind and the World Order....Deming used to say..."how do you know" (or "how could he know") alot.
Same thing philosophers used to say.."how do you know what you know." Deming merged statistics with philosophy to help understand processes. I think that often got misinterpretted as Deming taught SPC.
In fact, he disliked "statisticians" that sat behind computers, and felt the folks on the floor weren't given the knowledge to make decisions that didn't involve tampering.
SPC allows you to predict what the next part will look like...assuming all things remain the same. If a sample is outside the control limits...something changed....right? Maybe, you need to know, could just be the one sample outside the 3-sigma that you'll get every once in a while. Always bugs me when someone (auditors) insist one data point needs an explanation when it could be to simply wait for the next sample. Control charts in the hands of the uneducated is trouble.

Never got much farther into the Mind and the World Order thing, but realized he was much more than a statistician in the little research I did.

My 2 cents - yes, I'm a Deming follower, altho I wasn't when I first heard his ramblings at a 4-dayer. He was probably too old by then, sorry to say. But doing the research and trying to figure out what he was really saying made it much clearer.

"Without data, its just another opinion."
I've used that line more than once!

Laura

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Kevin Mader
Forum Wizard

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From:Seymour, CT USA
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posted 17 July 2000 11:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin Mader   Click Here to Email Kevin Mader     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Something I came across in my travels.....

Regards,

Kevin

Strangers in a strange land

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Strangers in a strage land
From: "William J. Latzko"
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:45:34 -0400

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copy of message to Bob Cringley:

There not being a discussion group for your article on Homer Sarasohn, I
write to you directly. since there is no discussion group on your web site
for this article.

While Sarasohn and Protzman did very valuable industrial engineering work,
they did not do the essential of getting Japanese top management to realize
the importance of quality. Having looked at their training text, I found
the it included some basic control chart methods. The few pages devoted to
quality compared to the rest of their extensive discussion of other
industrial engineering tools speaks for itself.

I admire Sarasohn and Protzman for the work they did. It certainly helped
the Japanese on to the road of recovery. However, to say that Deming, a
friend and colleague of Shewhart, did nothing to deserve his admiration by
the Japanese is incorrect.

To get the facts straight, Deming did not work for JUSE. They invited him
to come and teach the 600 some odd scientists and engineers in August of
1950. If that were all that he did, he would be as forgotten today as are
Sarasohn and Protzman.

What Deming did was to talk to the top managers of Japan and tell them that
quality came from them, not just the workers. These managers represented
80% of the Capital in Japan. He introduced the quality model which later
became the Plan-Do-Study-Act model. For your information, Deming always
credited Walter Shewhart for this model even though it was mostly his,
Deming's, creation.

Sure Sarasohn and Protzman were pioneers and did much to change Japanese
manufacturing methods. But, to say that Deming, and later Juran and
Feigenbaum did nothing to deserve the honors that they got from the
Japanese, is more than simplistic. I wish that you would set the record
straight.

Bill Latzko
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Professor W. J. Latzko, Ph.D. Voice: 201-868-5338
215 - 79th Street Fax: 201-868-5338
North Bergen, NJ 07047-5727
E-mail: latzko@worldnet.att.net
Alt E-mail: latzko@mary.fordham.edu

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