posted 18 January 2001 09:13 AM               

The sticking point for many was the question of whether or not money is a motivator. I would like to hear the forum members thoughts on this.

Regards,

posted 18 January 2001 10:03 AM               

1) Physiological: hunger, thirst, bodily comforts, etc.; - $ Definitely a factor & Huge motivator
2) Housing/Safety/security: out of danger; - $ Most Likely a solid Motivator
3) Belonginess and Love: affiliate with others, be accepted; - $ May or may not be a motivator
4) Esteem: to achieve, be competent, gain approval and recognition. - $ Probably plays a part in motivation
5) Cognitive: to know, to understand, and explore; - $ begins to become less of a motivator
6) Aesthetic: symmetry, order, and beauty; - $ as motivation become a small or neutral issue
7) Self-actualization: to find self-fulfillment and realize one's potential; - $ are most likely not a motivator
8) Transcendence: to help others find self-fulfillment and realize their potential. - $ Not a motivator at all.

Other interesting viewpoints and reading materials speaking to this can be found at>
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html

posted 18 January 2001 10:31 AM               

My experience has been that you can scratch an itch and relieve the problem for only a short period of time.

posted 18 January 2001 10:37 AM               

Salary is identified by Herzberg as a Hygiene Factor, not a Motivational Factor.

Does this change anything?

Regards,

posted 18 January 2001 03:01 PM               

Money does place one in a better "comfort zone", and the desire for that comfort motivates.....not the cash itself.

Kinda like a dog chasing a car. Once the dog catches it, it is no longer any fun..

Humans only have 2 real motivators and they are...

1) The acquisition of wealth or power and
2)the fulfillment of sexual/sensual pleasures or desire.

I came to that conclusion after spending many years putting people into prison.

It boils down to controlling you own destiny/being the boss (which makes #2 appropriate) and/or just feeling good. No if's, and's or but's.

Think about what really drives you in your endeavors and my theory will check out..

[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 18 January 2001).]

posted 18 January 2001 06:01 PM               

There are 2 things you don't muck up on with your employees, their pay, and their pay. Try short-changing someone in their pay and see how motivated they are!

posted 19 January 2001 10:01 AM               

In one particular company where i worked, when people earned more than 6000 Dm per month INCLUDING OVERTIME, after a discussion with Personnel that person was put on a fixed salary at or above 6000Dm. So what do you think happened? By my estimation more than half the people visibly reduced the overtime that they were working after obtaining a fixed salary.

Second example - I always preach that the best way to move employees or management is with money. Another company was trying to get their engineering HoDs to use Credit Cards to order Low Value Goods directly without going over Purchase. 'we are not doing Purchasings job' was the answer. By coincidence three months later a Cost Accounting System was set up whereby each dept charged each other for their services. As soon as Engieering saw how much Purchase was charging them per order they were banging at the Purchase Managers door trying to get the Credit Cards.

We live in a consumer society, everything that we want to do or have costs. The more money we have the more we can do or have. Sorry, but i beleive that money talks much louder than we are prepared to admit. I am currently in the process of building a second company. And the whole pay structure is largely based on bonuses tied to the success fo the company. I wouldnt consider to do it any other way.

And another point. The people at the top of Maslows pyramid, how do they measure or judge self-fulfilment? The best way in this modern society is wealth.

Just another view

Regards

posted 19 January 2001 02:08 PM               

Money, alone, it typically not a motivator.

Jerry

posted 19 January 2001 05:09 PM               

In Andy's post, he mentions that the best way to 'move' employees and management is by using money. Personally, I agree with others that money may motivate on lower levels of Maslow's pyramid (Jim's comments apply). Latter comments on money demotivating are equally appropriate, but the thought that comes to mind is that this fits nicely with Herzberg's Hygeine Factors.

Herzberg has written that motivated employees work more hours, not less, which raises the question why folks where Andy once worked worked fewer hours once attaining a salaried position. The game was clear: establish yourself as a high variable cost, get put into a fixed cost bracket. They were motivated by making more, not earning more. They were motivated to get the next pay increase (same pay, fewer hours). Herzberg suggests that things once called benefits are now considered rights. I think he is right on this point.

This also leads to the dangers of bonus programs (sorry Andy). The use of external motivators such as money (which I suggest is a tool for movement and not a motivator) leads to folks focusing on the prize and not the work. Shortcuts will often be used, manipulation of data, and other nonpositive techniques. How does a System improve if folks focus on prizes instead of the AIM of the system? Bonuses generally lead to more bonuses or bigger ones. Intrinsic behavior is not instilled in the employee/manager. This, for me, is the wrong type of enforcement.

Bribing folks to do their work is the wrong approach. Unfortunately, practice today is not to promote intrinsic behavior, but to rely on external prodding (soft with money, or hard by a threat of expulsion) which is movement. Still, organizations must achieve the Hygeine level or Maslows first two teirs.

Andy's data is unfortunately accurate in my estimation. People expect rewards. They have been taught this over and over again.

Regards,

Kevin

posted 19 January 2001 11:21 PM               

(1) The acquisition of wealth or power...

(2) The fulfillment of sensual or sexual (whichever you prefer) pleasure or desire....

Everything can be reduced to those 2 prime motivators....Just think about them and break them down.....

I'm fulfilling #2 right now.....I'm deriving a small measure of pleasure from this topic which I truly enjoy hashing out with other articulate folks.....See how it works?

posted 21 January 2001 06:03 AM               

If these things are valid for the management they must be good for the workers.

posted 21 January 2001 03:43 PM               

I seem to remember somewhere in the depths of my economic studies something like a money v motivation curve. The concept was that up to a certain point money creates more motivation, then when a certain point was reached no more motivation was possible (The curve if i remember right actually showed motivation going down after this point, but that i always had problems to understand).

This curve was of course based on 'rational man'. Interestingly i have seen this curve in operation many times here in Germany. The Germans do indeed seem capable of making a rational decision to trade further salary increases for increased leisure or family time. I could be guilty of stereotyping, but i never saw many examples of this in the UK, there people tended to work as long as work was available for fear of ending in a McJob, also in Ireland i tend to notice that people do not seem to make this rational decision so frequently, perhaps because Ireland is a comparatively new economy their thinking seems to be 'Make hay well the sun shines'.

Just some thoughts

------------------
Andy B

posted 21 January 2001 07:41 PM               

The business is currently experiencing a lot of debt recovery problems (10x our debt).

The Managing Director (80% owner) said last Friday, wouldn't it be interesting to see the result of scaling bonuses against payment by engineers customers within 30 days. This would significantly boost the financial situation of the business, and would certainly MOTIVATE the engineers to ensure their customers pay up front or on-time.

This would also provide cost savings in a number of areas.

Money vs Motivation. I'm for a win-win on this front!

------------------

posted 22 January 2001 06:06 AM               

Regards

------------------
Andy B

posted 22 January 2001 11:44 AM               

To Randyâs post: item one identifies well with Herzbergâs motivator factor ÎAchievementâ. The money is the thing to be recognized, and by our standards, having more correlates with having accomplished something of significance. This is what bother Herzberg. Hitting the lottery doesnât indicate personal accomplishment, just luck. Yet, without knowing how one acquired wealth, one is quick to assuming that the individual worked hard and deserved it (and the recognition of achievement).

To point two, I am reserving my thoughts on this for the time being.

To Andyâs first post (since my last post): none that I know of. Still, the CEO today is much like the Kings of old. Once you have more, you work to expand your domain and become the King of Kings. More recognition of achievement, deserved or not (i.e. Jack Welch).

To Lauraâs post: Your choice to use the term Îunmotivatedâ is interesting. Hezberg uses the Hygiene Factors to represent worker dissatisfaction and Motivational Factors to represent satisfaction. He concludes that job dissatisfaction is NOT the opposite of job satisfaction. Instead, he uses lack of satisfaction or lack of dissatisfaction to be the opposites of satisfaction and dissatisfaction. You choose respect and appreciation (recognition) to express a Motivational Factor. Folks will jump to a new UAW job because of money, but probably because their present work does not fulfil the hygiene factors necessary to retain people. Folks need to satisfied with Motivational Factors as well as being not dissatisfied by Hygiene Factors. This is often why folks are only temporarily satisfied, thinking more money will help them to deal with job frustration, when much more is required. Money in this instance (an in most instances, IMHO) created Movement, not motivation.

To Andyâs second post: Does the answer lie somewhere in the middle? Perhaps. I havenât seen the curve of money vs. motivation, but this seems to be very reasonable. The Law of Diminishing Returns suggest that the curve flattens out. This might be why some folks at the top need enormous amounts of money to feel any kind of movement (i.e. our over paid sports personalities, top CEOs). Are these rational people? Some would argue NO. But what have they learned over their lifetimes? Unfortunately, they have learned to be recognized as great, you must make more than your neighbor. Sad, I think. Herzberg also suggests that we are on our way to the 6 ¸ day weekend. This, while we are being paid the best in history. Many organizations are offering time off and huge rewards in an ever escalating economy. Who pays for all of this? We do, but in more ways than just financially.

To Johnâs post: The technician is looking for the Bigger Better Deal, or perhaps, just looking to have some of the Hygiene Factors taken care of (salary). The large dollars, yen, pounds paid to CEOs is somewhat puzzling. The risk factors increased, so doesnât the salary we suppose. But how many of us argued in our own minds, if not aloud, that folks making the most, donât necessarily contribute the most. Additionally, with golden parachutes, one is forced to wonder what risk do they assume (Ford, Firestone)? They are sheltered, and benefit from the myth that we promote, the higher we go, the more we should make. It is hard to challenge this thought, as all of us are trying to reach that comfort zone of ours. But what is this? Made by us, or made by society? Iâll bet society.

I guess Iâll keep taking the tablets you prescribe, Doctor John (hahaha)!

To Davidâs post: Your opening line is horrifying to me! This is one enormous misunderstanding of the leadership there. Why did they stop at 3x? Why not 4, 5, or even 10x contributions? I hope you are subject to that thinking. The additional Îbonusesâ suggest more trouble. They are unaware of what the System yields and are throwing darts to choose targets (or so it appears). I am not surprised about the debt, evidence of mismanagement and lack of leadership. Still, perhaps the 3x directive is an ultimatum, make this or the doors close for good. In that case, I wish everyone the best of luck in achieving that goal! The Managing Directorâs interesting suggestion is a cruel hoax. The suggestion is that the engineer has the power and authority to make these things happen. Perhaps they do, but looking from a traditional vantage point, this is not the work of engineers, but that of Accounts Receivable. Additionally, the Managing Directorâs suggestion is KITA. Kick the dog, he will move. The dog is not motivated, the kicker is. In this case the Director is motivated and wishes this on the engineer. What does the engineer need? This is what motivates the engineer.

I agree that win-win is the objective, but I am failing to see where the engineer benefits. More money? A hygiene factor. The money will only curb dissatisfaction, not create motivation. What we need is to find the things that motivate folks and build these into their work. The MD at your organization is busy doing other things: destroying an organization he has a 80% interest in.

Andyâs last post: I totally agree. I thank everyone to this point with the contributions that they have made. We have seen the lighter side and the dark side so far. I am pleased with the content of your posts.

What will I say to my group? There is still a bunch of confusion out there, that is to say, if you follow Herzbergâs and Maslowâs interpretations and theories. I myself am still sorting out the issues. This was one of my reasons for posting. I hoped to engage in discussion with Cove participants to learn from you all. I have. Particularly, I am not sure how I perceive the convicts who are after sex (or all of us for that matter, trying to fulfil sensual/sexual needs). Herzberg suggests that motivation is based on Îgrowth needsä and hygiene factors are caused by Îenvironmental factorsâ. He includes Relationships as a Hygiene factor, and as I mentioned earlier, hygiene factors deal with dissatisfaction and no dissatisfaction. Can sex be a factor of motivation?

I began to develop a theory I call ãThe Line of Complexityä, which illustrates where needs and wants exist. As life becomes more complex, do our wants become needs. This was prompted from one of my groups discussions where the question was asked, is Love a Need or a Want (Maslowâs first two tiers are considered essential for life)? Pretty good question, creates a good deal of thoughts. Do you need love or companionship (sex?) to sustain life? This is just like ãIs money a motivator?ä I am sure that I would receive similar responses as above, mixed.

I would like to suggest an article found in the Harvard Business Review, Sept-Oct 1987, entitled ãOne more time: How do you motivate employees?ä by Herzberg. It is an enlightening article, a reprint from 1968. The material is quite relevant today as it was then. In the article, he explains his theories, the differences of Movement vs. Motivation, and the Hygiene-Motivation Factors. I would also suggest reading ãPunished by Rewardsä, by Alfie Kohn which I think blends nicely with Herzbergâs and Maslowâs work.

Enough said, so back to the group·

Regards,

posted 22 January 2001 05:28 PM               

Regards

posted 22 January 2001 06:24 PM               

"1. What are the likely implications of Kohn s background on his
perspective on the topic of rewards? "
"2. Is pop-behaviorialism as widely accepted in our schools, businesses
and child-rearing methods as it ever was?
What evidence have you seen of
any trends? "
"3. Is the United States different from other countries in its faith in
reward systems? "
"4. Are there groups or sub-sets of the population that have resisted the
temptation or recovered from dependency on rewards?"

Punished by Rewards? http://www.dpa.ca.gov/tcid/osci/express/18b.htm http://www.ascd.org/readingroom/edlead/9509/kohn.html http://familyeducation.com/article/0%2C1120%2C20-281%2C00.html http://familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,1-281,00.html http://www.netidea.com/~mirhughe/suzuki/punish.htm

"Although many of its claims are unsettling, the arguments are persuasive and the alternatives it offers are useful. It calls us to question not only the way in which we use rewards and praise in the Suzuki method, but the way in which our entire culture unquestioningly marches to the beat of the behaviourist legacy of Skinner and Pavlov."
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/94BRcr.html

posted 23 January 2001 01:59 PM               

Great job in rounding up all the bits and pieces you did! I hadn't realized so much was written on Alfie Kohn and was certainly pleased to see that someone had taken the time to retype the Herzberg article. I still recommend those of you following this thread to try and get your hands on the article itself with graphs (the artwork at the site did not work on my computer).

1. What are the likely implications of Kohn s background on his
perspective on the topic of rewards?

I am not sure if I understand your question completely, but here is what I think. Alfie Kohn gives an account of his early days in college where he challenged Skinnerian thought on a shallow level. Later in life, he did several interviews Skinner and had Skinner speak to his class in moving to challenge the paradigm on a much grander scale. I don't think the men saw eye to eye on much. Skinner believed heavily that the environment dictated behavior, which suggest Hygiene Factors to me. Kohn's writing, although I don't see him make a clear distinction between Hygiene and Motivational factors, eludes to the fact that there is a difference. He spends most of time, however, speaking about Herzberg's list of Motivator Factors. As such, I think Kohn has deep awareness and understanding of both external and internal motivators. Having said this, I guess I don't see any implications.

"2. Is pop-behaviorialism as widely accepted in our schools, businesses
and child-rearing methods as it ever was?
What evidence have you seen of
any trends? "

The trend continues to use Skinnerian approaches. As both Kohn and Herzberg point out, this is an almost irreversable trend. It is so much easier to control folks by dangling the carrot rather than doing the work of working with folks to develop feedback and instill intrinsic behavior. There are several good papers written by Myron Tribus showing how the Skinnerian approach has caused the decline of education the world over. I recommend visiting the DEN (Deming Electronic Network) where his papers can be downloaded or read.

"3. Is the United States different from other countries in its faith in
reward systems? "

Well, different from Japan I suppose, at least on most levels. As for the rest of the world, I think we might have the edge on making things worse. We count on rewards! Dr. Mikel Harry's Six Sigma program is based on the rewards priciple for example. Our recent debates last fall by our Presidential candidates confrimed the worse: more accountability and rewards in education. Maybe it will work this time? We know the answer to that!

"4. Are there groups or sub-sets of the population that have resisted the
temptation or recovered from dependency on rewards?"

For this I refer you again to the DEN. Myron Tribus cites examples the world over where Intrinsic Behavior supersedes the old prevailing paradigm. It is really inspiring work that he and others have done to transform the educational system. I have spoken with him on a few occasions and he has pointed me to other reading from Dr. Feuerstein who is working on Structural Cognitive Modifiability (the way we learn). His work, coinciding with the Deming method, have been combined by Myron Tribus and David Langford to create some pretty interesting discoveries. I'll leave it there as I can not do justice in my explanation.

Thanks again for the many good links!

Regards,