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  Document Matrix's. Can the Server be used?

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Author Topic:   Document Matrix's. Can the Server be used?
Andy Bassett
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Posts: 274
From:Donegal Ireland
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 22 February 2000 06:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andy Bassett   Click Here to Email Andy Bassett     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looking at a subject on another thread jogged my memory about a problem i have had in the back of my mind for some time.

I have never yet seen a company that gets any benefit out of a Document Matrix (I know the theorey behind it, but thats the reality).

If i am using a EDP System, can i not simply say that the latest documentation can always be found on the server, and if necessary do a screen shot of the server as evidence for the auditor.?

The only documentation that may then need to be in a matrix is externally supplied documents. Delivery Notes etc

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Andy B

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Spaceman Spiff
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From:FL
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posted 22 February 2000 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spaceman Spiff   Click Here to Email Spaceman Spiff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is exactly how I re-constructed the document system at my company. Thus far, the assessor did not have any problems with this method. I do need to state that the IT Administrator and I are the only two with Read & Write access to the Documentation System drive.

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Sam
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posted 22 February 2000 08:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sam   Click Here to Email Sam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I implemented the same process using ISO-x-Pert at a previous company. Worked great, auditors had no problem with it.

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Brenda Mundroff
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posted 22 February 2000 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brenda Mundroff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So, why do we need a document matrix? The only benefit I see is for the auditor or
the MR to be able to identify who owns what and where it is located. Outside of that, the technicians know where there doc is located. Other benefits I might be missing?

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Marc Smith
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posted 22 February 2000 09:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bassett:

If i am using a EDP System, can i not simply say that the latest documentation can always be found on the server, and if necessary do a screen shot of the server as evidence for the auditor?


Yup - you sure can say the 'latest' documentation is on the server. And your document 'matrix' can be a directory listing.

On the other hand, many companies use a matirx to define retention times and such. In fact, many companies have multiple document matrices.

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Sam
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posted 22 February 2000 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sam   Click Here to Email Sam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did we confuse "Document Matrix" with "Master List"
A master list being a list of documents,document numbers, location and rev. level.
A document matrix being a matrix of functions down one side and types of documents across the top with the responsibility for approval and release as the filler.

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Marc Smith
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posted 22 February 2000 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is no requirement for a document matrix (per your definition) that I know of.

There is no requirement for a document list (per your definition as well), either.

quote:
ISO9001:1994

4.5.2 Document and data approval and issue

The documents and data shall be reviewed and approved for adequacy by authorized personnel prior to issue. A master list or equivalent document control procedure identifying the current revision status of documents shall be established and be readily available to preclude the use of invalid and/or obsolete documents.


quote:
ISO9001:2000 (from the 'released' Australian 'standard')

5.5.6 Control of documents

Documents required for the quality management system shall be controlled. A documented procedure shall be established:

a) to approve documents for adequacy prior to issue;
b) to review, update as necessary and re-approve documents;
c) to identify the current revision status of documents;
d) to ensure that relevant versions of applicable documents are available at points of use;
e) to ensure that documents remain legible, readily identifiable and retrievable;
f) to ensure that documents of external origin are identified and their distribution controlled;
g) to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents, and to apply suitable identification to them if they are retained for any purpose. Documents defined as quality records shall be controlled (see 5.5.7).


Note that the 2000 version says nothing about a master list.

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Sam
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posted 23 February 2000 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sam   Click Here to Email Sam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marc, As usual you are absolutly right. Those were my "personal" definitions based on previous "wants/needs" of the auditor. The real requirements were "stretched" a little.
In our system we are still required to have the master list as required by QS9000.

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Marc Smith
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posted 23 February 2000 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sam:

In our system we are still required to have the master list as required by QS9000.


Where does QS9000 require a master list?
quote:
QS9000 (Version 3)

4.5.2 ÷ Document and Data Approval and Issue

The documents and data shall be reviewed and approved for adequacy by authorized personnel prior to issue. A master list or equivalent document control procedure identifying the current revision status of documents shall be established and be readily available to preclude the use of invalid and/or obsolete documents.



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Sam
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posted 23 February 2000 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sam   Click Here to Email Sam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Again you are correct, however, Master list or equivalent....
Somehow I don't see the difference, other than to add fuel for comentary between auditor/auditee.

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Marc Smith
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posted 23 February 2000 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It says: "...equivalent document control procedure...". You can state in your procedure that "...a summary of documents can be obtained by doing a directory listing..." or whatever. All they want is that you can show what documents you have and that they are in control. Yeah - rev level, etc., but technically you can get that from the document.

The point is if you design your systems to satisfy what an auditor feels is a satisfactory system you can quickly loose control. Having a master list and matrix is a typical expectation of an auditor. That doesn't mean that is the requirement. If an auditor started telling me I have to have a master list or matrix and I used a different methodology which fulfills the requirement, I'd fight for my system.

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barb butrym
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posted 23 February 2000 06:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
marc is absolutely right...no need to go any further...as usual

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Bob
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From:Jacksonville, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03 March 2000 08:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob   Click Here to Email Bob     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At our military aircraft and component overhaul facility, we are setting our system to the ISO 9000:2000 requirements and are blending in the AS9100:1999 requirements. AS9000 has added two additional requirements to our 5.5.6 Control of Document system. They are
5.5.6(b) (i) Document change incorporation: the organization shall establish a process to ensure the timely review, distribution, implementation and maintenance of all authorized and released drawings, standards, specifications, planning, and changes. The organziation shall maintain a record of change incorporation and, when required, shall coordinate these incorporations with the customer and/or regulatory authority. (from AS9100:1999. para. 4.5.3).

and

5.5.6(h) When customer furnished digital data is used for design, production and/or inspection, the Depot shall establish system controls in accordance with customer requirements. (from AS9100:1999. para. 4.5.3).

While we know that a "Master Document List" is NOT an ISO or AS requirement, the standard basically requires that documents be controlled and retrievable. We have chosen to use an on-line approach that just happens to appear as a list of documents that the users can click and open. People, by nature, like lists. The added plus with our on-line DCS system is that you can do a "keyword" search to help you sort things out.

Also, as we proceed down the document pyramid to the actual work documents, the level of control (open loop vs. closed loop) increases.

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Andy Bassett
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From:Donegal Ireland
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 23 March 2000 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andy Bassett   Click Here to Email Andy Bassett     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK folks. So i guess for my EDP documents i dont need a matrix or a master list. I can point at the Server and describe how it is managed in a controlled manner to ensure that the latest documents are available.

But what about drawings from the customer. The company in question (small electronics assembler) has a good system with a SINGLE file for each product and a golden rule that when a new document is inserted the old one is MARKED and stored in the obsolete section. If you want the latest issue document you look in these files.
There is no single matrix/master list that you can look into which instantly tells you what the latest status is.

Can i get away with this?.

Can i use the same technique for other documents such as Standards/Parts Specifications/Supplier catalogues etc.?

Living in hope

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Andy B

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