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  Definition of finding

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Author Topic:   Definition of finding
Eugene
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 6
From:Singapore
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 13 December 1999 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eugene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is the definition of finding :

A FINDING IS DEFINED AS A CONCLUSION OF IMPORTANCE BASED ON OBSERVATIONS OR A FINDING IS DEFINED AS A CONCLUSION OF IMPORTANCE BASED ON EVIDENCE.

ANY INPUTS??

Eugene

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Marc Smith
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From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 13 December 1999 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let's say I'm an auditor and I watch as an employee does something. There is an undocumented but trained system which was explained to me earlier. The employee I am observing is not following the trained system. I really don't have 'hard' evidence (no paper to copy or such) but I can issue a finding based upon my observation.

The above is observed - but - the term OBSERVATION in the ISO9000 world used to mean the same as is now called things like OPPORTUNITIES FOR IMPROVEMENT.

An OBSERVATION was not a 'finding' in the 'old' ISO world, but that has nothing to do with observing a noncompliance.

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barb butrym
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posted 14 December 1999 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
evidence can be an interview or 'seeing' a nonconformance happen....corraborated by your guide, or further interviews with another trained employee.... As long as there is verification (did I see what I thought I saw) And was what I was told corraborated by a minimum of 2 sources as true? Sources can be interviews, or paper or evidence from another auditor..etc.

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Randy
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From:Barstow, CA, USA
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posted 14 December 1999 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I understand a FINDING to be a non-conformance base upon OBJECTIVE evidence.

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Marc Smith
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posted 14 December 1999 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How do you define objective evidence?

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Randy
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posted 14 December 1999 03:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE is that which is defined as verifiable information based upon records, observations or statements of fact.

The evidence can be quantitative or qualitative and used by an auditor to determine whether or not the audit criteria has been met.

The evidence can be based upon interviews, document review, observation, and the existing results of measurments and testing.

The evidence must however be within the agreed to scope of the audit criteria.

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Marc Smith
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posted 14 December 1999 03:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think we're all in agreement here. The only confusion was over the word observation which is an issue of the context in which it is used.

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David Guffey
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Posts: 49
From:St. Joseph MI, USA
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 14 December 1999 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Guffey   Click Here to Email David Guffey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hafta snicker over this. Obviously somebody wants to argue a "finding", eh?

Kinda like telling the judge that the cop only "saw" you run the stop sign. Guess who's gonna win?

Rather than bitch and moan and fight a finding, fix it with the same energy and watch the world spin more easily.

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Eugene
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From:Singapore
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 14 December 1999 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eugene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agreed with Marc that we are in the same song book except that it is a bit confusing on the two words "observations" and evidence".
To conclude , a finding is an audit conclusion that idnetifies a condition having a significant adverse effect on the quality of the activity under review and findings are negative,violation of a requirement,promise made and was not kept.

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barb butrym
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posted 15 December 1999 09:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I much prefer common sense to semantics...life is much easier that way.

We all get hung up on words.....and numbers (as in # of N/C)....the point is, if its broke fix it. If the people involved are representing the process incorrectly....educate them...if it adds no value say so...if the procedure can be clarified for everyones benefit...just do it for God sakes. Don't be so defensive.

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David Guffey
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From:St. Joseph MI, USA
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posted 22 December 1999 04:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Guffey   Click Here to Email David Guffey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, Barb. This kind of conversation has always confused me. I fix the "observations" as well as the "findings". If I don't, they darn sure will be "findings" later on...

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Marc Smith
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posted 22 December 1999 08:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another resource is: Elsmar.com/mvsm.html

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