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Author Topic:   Registrars
Doug
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Neenah Wi Winnibago
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01 February 2001 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doug   Click Here to Email Doug     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was assigned to guide the external auditors for a reassesment. When I picked them up at the airport, their only concern was the location of the local football hall of fame and the shopping mall. For 3 days I was their taxi driver. At no time did these two gentelmen get within 7 miles of the plant. I could not believe that 5 weeks later, the Certificate of Compliance was delivered. Is this a common practice or a little heard of black hole? What can be done to stop this sort practice?

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ISO GUY
Forum Contributor

Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01 February 2001 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is disgusting!! I would call your Registrar and make a complaint. I would also seek a refund from them turn the Certificate bac over to them and use another Registrar. I might even go as far as calling the Registration Accrediation Board and report the auditors to them. Not that it matters but who is your Registrar so that I can be sure to stay away from them.

If you would like you can e-mail me and I would be more than happy to give you some names of reputiable registrars.

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Rick Goodson
Forum Wizard

Posts: 102
From:Wuakesha, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 01 February 2001 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Goodson   Click Here to Email Rick Goodson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doug,

I have to second the ISOGUY's sentiments. This group should be reported. Whether it is a case of two auditors commiting fraud or the registrar as a whole committing fraud, the RAB needs to be involved. However, the first step involves your management representative and your senior management. Are they aware and what is their position and response?

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Doug
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Neenah Wi Winnibago
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01 February 2001 03:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doug   Click Here to Email Doug     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When this matter was brought up at a management meeting, I got a cork stuck in my blow hole. I was told by upper management (to include the company President) that I was to speak when spoken to otherwise I had nothing to say that would be of interest to them. My only reply to that statement was "Take this job and shove it". I quit on the spot. The Company that I am now working for (happily) is regestered through TUV Management Services. As for the last company, I was wondering if the company itself could be held accountable for accepting the Cert? (a little revenge on my part perhaps?) I have a feeling that it was a simple cash under the table deal because I know that this company could not pass an audit even if it were conducted by my 9 year old grandson.

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Laura M
Forum Contributor

Posts: 299
From:Rochester, NY US
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 01 February 2001 03:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laura M   Click Here to Email Laura M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why, after the first day, did you continue to be a taxi cab for them?

Edit: OOps quick posts coming in. I think I get the picture. Absolutely report them.

[This message has been edited by Laura M (edited 01 February 2001).]

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ISO GUY
Forum Contributor

Posts: 81
From:Rochester, NY
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01 February 2001 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ISO GUY   Click Here to Email ISO GUY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well to be honest with you I think you did the right thing by parting company with them. If what you say is true I have a feeling that a little "cash under the table" deal may have teken place. I know you say a little revenge would be nice but I feel that you have a duty to report the auditors and the Registrar. I would be more than happy to provide you with the RAB's phone number. It is safe to say if they did it for your former employer they have done it before and will do it again.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 01 February 2001 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Laura M:
Why, after the first day, did you continue to be a taxi cab for them?
More importantly, did they tip well??

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Doug
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Neenah Wi Winnibago
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01 February 2001 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doug   Click Here to Email Doug     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They did not tip me a single dime, but I have got a pocket full of change if ISO Guy wants to send me that number!
Thanks for the humor Marc, thats the first time I smiled about this since it happened. Keep up the good work.

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Dawn
Forum Contributor

Posts: 245
From:St. Marys, PA
Registered: Sep 98

posted 01 February 2001 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dawn   Click Here to Email Dawn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Will you tell us who the Registrar was? Maybe e-mail me?

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Randy
Forum Wizard

Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 01 February 2001 08:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's totally disgusting..........

I've spent a ton of money and expended a whole lot of effort to get myself trained and certified as a Lead Auditor and Bozo's like those 2 can get away with crap like that.

I don't know about other folks, but I take things like ethics very serious....maybe that's why I haven't been able to land any work with a Registrar (everybody knows that EMS Lead Auditors are falling out of trees all over the place). I let people know up front that I can't be bought, and will break it off in someones 5th point of contact if they try to buy me.

I learned alot about guerilla warfare in the Marines....these guys and the Registrar (if they are aware of this issue) need to be ambushed. They are probably using the same trail and tactics all the time.

Scumbags.................

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Al Dyer
Forum Wizard

Posts: 622
From:Lapeer, MI USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01 February 2001 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Dyer   Click Here to Email Al Dyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randy,

Outstanding!!!!!!

ASD...

------------------
Al Dyer
Mngt. Rep.
ullysses3@excite.com

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Rick Goodson
Forum Wizard

Posts: 102
From:Wuakesha, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 02 February 2001 09:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Goodson   Click Here to Email Rick Goodson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doug,

Just a final note. As is obvious from the posts, the RAB needs to be aware of this. Whether you consider it revenge, or look at it from the point of trying to improve the integrity of the system is not important, get the RAB involved. Quality 'guys' have been taking heat for years and this type of behavior does not help our credibility.

Hope the new job is working out well!

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Doug
Lurker (<10 Posts)

Posts: 5
From:Neenah Wi Winnibago
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02 February 2001 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doug   Click Here to Email Doug     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the phone number Aaron, I will make the call and let everyone know the outcome.

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Jim Evans
Forum Contributor

Posts: 45
From:Union City, MI, USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 16 February 2001 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Evans   Click Here to Email Jim Evans     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just came accross this topic and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I have never heard of such gross negligence. I have been at this quality thing long enough to see all sorts of incompetance but I can't recall anything that even approaches what Doug describes.

Doug, I can't give you any better advice than what has already been offered, except to say that you should let the RAB know as well as the registrar. I am curious as to who the registrar was at your old company. If you do not wish to publically post it could you email me? BTW---I would also like to know what products your old company made so I can stay as far away from them as I can. If they are willing to comprimise their integrity, letting unfit product out the door couldn't be far behind. I am glad to hear things are working out at your new job.

Jim

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barb butrym
Forum Contributor

Posts: 637
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 17 February 2001 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for barb butrym   Click Here to Email barb butrym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absolutely disgusting......... I have heard many horror stories, but that was the worst on the ethics issue....short days, skipped one ...BUT 3x2?

RAB or IATCIA or UCAS or whoever needs to know...there are too many honest, hard working auditors getting a bad rap when things like this happen.

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 17 February 2001).]

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Randy
Forum Wizard

Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 19 February 2001 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I gotta good one.....It appears there is at least one Registrar who does ISO 14000 that prefers its Auditors to have a degree in Engineering in lieu of a solid background in environmental management and compliance. If you don't have an engineering background it doesn't matter how solid your environmental one is.

I thought ISO 14000 referenced environmental stuff somewhere.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

It kinda makes me wonder.

[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 19 February 2001).]

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outoftown
Forum Contributor

Posts: 15
From:Cary, NC, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 18 March 2001 10:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outoftown   Click Here to Email outoftown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The lack of integrity by the auditors threatens to undermine all 3rd party auditing. Every client has the right to ask for an auditor's bio and could challenge the auditor at the first meeting to produce credentials. Even with this screening, any lack of professionalism should be reported as an official complaint to the registrar (RAB and RvA holds registrars to have a complaint system). Anything less than 6 hours per audit day ISO and 8 hours per audit day for QS on site should give you the right to withhold payment. Gross misrepresentation of the audit hours is akin to lawyers charging for hours not worked and should be reported to the accreditation body certifying the auditors and the registrar's accreditation body.

BTW, Randy, no offense to your education and skills and congrats on your new audit job, but the accreditation bodies got picky with education requirements recently. The RAB actually forced the registrar I work for to double the audit requirements for someone we hired without a technical college background. If things don't work out for you, email me.

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Randy
Forum Wizard

Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 19 March 2001 08:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Outoftown,

I have a BS degree in Occupational Health & Safety (summa cum laud) and am finishing up my MBA. I am also multi-credentialed in environmental and safety management ( one credential is from the California EPA). I would kind of figure that as an EMS auditor that I may possess some small skill somewhat close to that of being that of an electrical engineer when it comes to performing environmental auditing. But I guess UL and some others don't look upon it that way. A professional environmental background, coupled with EMS-LA credentials apparentley is not sufficient enough for them.

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Marc Smith
Cheech Wizard

Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 19 March 2001 07:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc Smith   Click Here to Email Marc Smith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
->The lack of integrity by the auditors threatens to
->undermine all 3rd party auditing.

Integrity, stupidity, lack of experience in a specific industry - all are significant problems with the current situation. ISO 9K and QS9K have both moved to the edge of the envelope of whether or not registration makes sense at all. The need for auditors has sky rocketed - there aren't all that many truely qualified auditors. With the need for qualified auditors increasing this aspect of the problem is only going to get worse.

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Clive
unregistered
posted 27 March 2001 10:30 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi
I have worked for a certification body for 11 years and have completed about 1000 audit days. I have never heard of such a disgaceful
performance. CB's such as the one these guys work for give the industry a bad name, I wish the accreditation bodies had more teeth!

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Marilyn P
Forum Contributor

Posts: 14
From:Bluegrass State
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 17 April 2001 04:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marilyn P   Click Here to Email Marilyn P     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a 3rd party auditor horror story as well. We had the same male auditor for about 4 years. He bored us with personal problems, requested freebies, and hit on the female guide (me) and another single female in the office. He left the company after four years and I was so sick of him that I was glad to see him go.

Upper management refused to complain about him because they opined that he did a good job for them and they didn't want anyone new!

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Steven Truchon
Forum Contributor

Posts: 89
From:Fort Lauderdale, FL USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 18 April 2001 07:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steven Truchon   Click Here to Email Steven Truchon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When we had the same auditor that Marilyn mentioned, our sales manager kept him busy for all but about 2 hours/day at a local strip club and he continually hit on a couple of our female employees as well, married and single.

Marilyn, I experienced the same upper management resistance to my "concerns" regarding the auditor you mentioned here at our division. This auditor has returned to the registrar and now operates in California btw.

Fortunately, we now have who I consider an excellent auditor from our registrar (Thanks Marilyn for recommending Fred).

Regards,
Steve

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Randy
Forum Wizard

Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 18 April 2001 09:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well while I'm here I guess I'll join in again. Registrars need to do a better job of policing themsevles it sounds like. The Registrar I am becoming associated with (American Global Standards) just asked me to serve on their Adisory Board. As such I will be a voting member on how the auditing business is to be conducted by the company and other things. I hope my input can prevent some of what you guys are discussing.

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Sweet Success
unregistered
posted 05 June 2001 03:01 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
GREAT NEWS!!! I am the one who started this topic. I am VERY pleased to inform all of you that helped by giving me the tools and direction needed to chase this rat back into its hole that this is a success story. I have found out that the two auditors are no longer working in the quality field and that the organization they represented (from england) went out of business in 95 or 96. The best news of all? The MAN IN CHARGE of the company I worked for has until the end of August this year to clean out his desk. I guess that the parent company takes this stuff a bit more seriously than he did. I have also started a new carrer. I am starting a small metals fabricating shop that is due to open in July. Thank you again for all your help and good luck in the future.
P.S. This is one of the best sites on the web and I am quick to tell anyone that will listen to check it out.

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LL
unregistered
posted 12 June 2001 10:40 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If anyone out there knows of any certification bodies which is reputable and popular in Australia?

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E Wall
Forum Contributor

Posts: 45
From:Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 14 June 2001 09:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for E Wall   Click Here to Email E Wall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can highly recommend Det Norske Vertis (DNV), but they currently have no location in Australia, the closest is in Indonesia - see site at www.dnvda.com

Good Luck

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LL
unregistered
posted 20 June 2001 03:02 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does DNV certified systems to medical device co.?How well do you know about NCSI, DLIQ, IQS, TQCSI etc? Are these few certification bodies reputable and popular? Appreciate your reply. Many Thanks!!!

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Randy
Forum Wizard

Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 20 June 2001 07:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy   Click Here to Email Randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A small personal comment on this Registrar line.

I'm going to audit a Registrar next week, that's gonna be a 1st for me. We shall see what we shall see.

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E Wall
Forum Contributor

Posts: 45
From:Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 20 June 2001 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for E Wall   Click Here to Email E Wall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LL:
Does DNV certified systems to medical device co.?How well do you know about NCSI, DLIQ, IQS, TQCSI etc? Are these few certification bodies reputable and popular? Appreciate your reply. Many Thanks!!!

I recommend you go to the DNV web site for answers about what systems they audit.
DNV has been around a very long time, and is highly respected among their piers.
As a customer, I can tell you they do a thorough job, and view themselves as a 'partner'. They make themselves available for technical questions (not just making available your auditor - but others too), and send out informational bulletins to help companies at all stages of their registration.

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