M
Matrix45
If nothing changes i.e. procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc then corrective action has not been applied and will not remove the root cause. For a corrective action to be effective, a change is required?
Corrective Action - For a corrective action to be effective, a change is required?
Re: Corrective Action
Perhaps the premise is that the procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc are all perfect and that all is well.
There may not be a need for a change here at all.
Changes in personnel, material, environment may have occured, giving you a corrective action situation.
Therefore when the root cause analysis is done well, things other than the procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc may be addressed, OR any one or more among the procedure, work instruction ,drawing etc will be tweaked to the next revision (changed) in order to accommodate the faced change.
So a change is not always necessary in the CA process limited to these ie. procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc.
Hi Matrix.
Perhaps the premise is that the procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc are all perfect and that all is well.
There may not be a need for a change here at all.
Changes in personnel, material, environment may have occured, giving you a corrective action situation.
Therefore when the root cause analysis is done well, things other than the procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc may be addressed, OR any one or more among the procedure, work instruction ,drawing etc will be tweaked to the next revision (changed) in order to accommodate the faced change.
So a change is not always necessary in the CA process limited to these ie. procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc.
Re: Corrective Action
For the most part yes, although a corrective action can (very, very rarely) be closed with 'accept risk/consequences as is' In other words, we cannot fix so we accept as is.
I personally would be careful accepting this as an answer, it could easily become a 'default answer' because people do not want to address CA's.
For the most part yes, although a corrective action can (very, very rarely) be closed with 'accept risk/consequences as is' In other words, we cannot fix so we accept as is.
I personally would be careful accepting this as an answer, it could easily become a 'default answer' because people do not want to address CA's.
M
Matrix45
Re: Corrective Action
Considering the comments, then how do we prevent recurrence without evidence ?
Considering the comments, then how do we prevent recurrence without evidence ?
Re: Corrective Action
If your root cause arrived at was "The root cause" .... and if your corrective action towards it was "The corrective action", the detected problem will not re occur.
Repeat of the NC at a future time is the only evidence, either for an inappropriate corrective action or due to a new root cause yet to be detected.
One needs to investigate afresh to decide.
You just have to apply the decided corrective action, be it in the procedure, policy, work instruction ,drawing etc. or something else outside this.Considering the comments, then how do we prevent recurrence without evidence ?
If your root cause arrived at was "The root cause" .... and if your corrective action towards it was "The corrective action", the detected problem will not re occur.
Repeat of the NC at a future time is the only evidence, either for an inappropriate corrective action or due to a new root cause yet to be detected.
One needs to investigate afresh to decide.
Re: Corrective Action - For a corrective action to be effective, a change is required
Matrix,
Ask why again for each of the claimed root causes. Some root causes cannot be removed because they exist outside the scope of your organizational management system. Here you seek evidence of prevention.
For the root causes within the scope of the organizational management system, seek first the changes to the processes that removed the root causes. Then look and listen at the evidence of effectiveness of these changes and their interactions before examining any corresponding changes to the documented parts of the process-based management system.
Evaluate the evidence and decide. As auditor do not be the first to do this. State that you expect first to see the evidence used by the manager responsible to decide on the effectiveness of the corrective actions before getting involved as the auditor.
So, work first and paperwork second. And auditee management first then auditor. Too many auditors stop at paperwork or get involved too early, thereby removing responsibility from the managers.
John
Matrix,
Ask why again for each of the claimed root causes. Some root causes cannot be removed because they exist outside the scope of your organizational management system. Here you seek evidence of prevention.
For the root causes within the scope of the organizational management system, seek first the changes to the processes that removed the root causes. Then look and listen at the evidence of effectiveness of these changes and their interactions before examining any corresponding changes to the documented parts of the process-based management system.
Evaluate the evidence and decide. As auditor do not be the first to do this. State that you expect first to see the evidence used by the manager responsible to decide on the effectiveness of the corrective actions before getting involved as the auditor.
So, work first and paperwork second. And auditee management first then auditor. Too many auditors stop at paperwork or get involved too early, thereby removing responsibility from the managers.
John
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