Utilizing ISO and Customer Audits for Internal Audits

My manager is asking if I can utilize both customer and registration audits to figure into my internal audit program to cause less impac on the auditees who participate in all three types of audits.

I do cite findings during these audits that the auditors did not catch but can I really state that these are part of an internal audit program? Has anyone done this and how?

Re: Utilizing ISO and Customer Audits

Don't even try it because the results will be disastrous during you next CB audit

Re: Utilizing ISO and Customer Audits

I see the intent - "minimize the resources spent on auditing" but I'm with Randy on this one.

Always learn from the audits you endure, and take the auditor's advice / correct the shortcomings identified AS APPROPRIATE, but I don't think that passing those off as internal audit substitutes will fly.

Every time an audit occurs an auditor gets his/her wings.

And every time an audit is skipped a child grows a mullet.

Re: Utilizing ISO and Customer Audits

MaryLou said:

My manager is asking if I can utilize both customer and registration audits to figure into my internal audit program to cause less impac on the auditees who participate in all three types of audits.

I do cite findings during these audits that the auditors did not catch but can I really state that these are part of an internal audit program? Has anyone done this and how?

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MaryLou,

Do you have top management's objectives for your internal audit programme?

"Less impact on the auditees" diminishes the value of the management system and auditing so it does not count!

"Invoking overlooked improvements to the management system's most critical processes" may be a valid objective.

Offer choices for top management to adopt as their own.

Then your manager may stop interfering and resource the programme as it needs to be.

John

I don't agree; audits of the system are audits. Who does them should be irrelevant. Whats important is that processes are audited.

8.2.2 Internal audit
The organization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals to determine whether the quality management system
a) conforms to the planned arrangements (see 7.1), to the requirements of this International Standard and to the quality management system requirements established by the organization, and
b) is effectively implemented and maintained.

Is it not the case that internal audits are sometimes contracted out to third parties?

Why would a customer audit not fulfill this role?

kgott said:

Why would a customer audit not fulfill this role?

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Because, as a supplier, you have no control over:
- the customer auditor's competence
- the audit scope
- the audit criteria
- usage of status and importance in planning the audit.
Etc.

Yeah, and while customer audits often do point out weak spots and result in improvements, we all know that there are instances where we choose NOT to air our dirty laundry to our customers.

Now if you had a customer come in and tear apart one process group resulting in a major rewrite of that process, I could justify that as appropriate input and simply verify the effectiveness of the corrective actions addressing that process. But it would have to have been an exhaustive customer audit.

In most cases, customer and CB audits are not substantial enough to fulfill the in-depth process auditing that you will want to do for process owners and senior management reviews of your QMS. Certainly, there may be some insights coming from outside talent... by all means, pick their brains to the extent that they will allow.

I agree with Normzone entirely... " we choose NOT to air our dirty laundry to our customers "!!! Internally, you can and should be ruthless in search of meeting and exceeding quality requirements through continual improvement efforts.

MaryLou said:

.... to cause less impac on the auditees who participate in all three types of audits.

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Stop doing them the way you are doing them, and make them relevant to the auditees! I'll wager it's you audit PROGRAM which isn't working and, rather than abandon it and attempt to substitute external audits, find out why your auditees aren't getting any benefit and fix that! I could hazard a number of guesses about how you actually run your internal audits, but the bottom line is, your auditees see no reason to do them and that's what needs fixed!

MaryLou said:

My manager is asking if I can utilize both customer and registration audits to figure into my internal audit program to cause less impac on the auditees who participate in all three types of audits.

I do cite findings during these audits that the auditors did not catch but can I really state that these are part of an internal audit program? Has anyone done this and how?

Click to expand...

Absolutely not.
Internal audit have criteria scope and criteria with regards customer and registrar audit.
Besides, internal audit program is a requirement of ISO 9001 and it is required a documented procedure.
What if no customer audit happens in a pair of years?