Can the same form number be in Word and Excel for ISIR's and such?

As the title asks, we have a debate whether a document e.g. ABC 1.2 rev B that we put dimentional results on for PPAP can be in both Excel and Word format or does each need a different form number?

They both look practically the same. Our documentation is hand written and different QE's or Techs have to type them for the customer. Can they coexist side by side or do they need a different form number or rev??

Mark Paul said:

As the title asks, we have a debate whether a document e.g. ABC 1.2 rev B that we put dimentional results on for PPAP can be in both Excel and Word format or does each need a different form number?

They both look practically the same. Our documentation is hand written and different QE's or Techs have to type them for the customer. Can they coexist side by side or do they need a different form number or rev??

Click to expand...

First, they might not need to be formally controlled at all. If you describe in your documentation the information that must be included in a dimensional report, and finished reports contain all of that information, control is a non-issue.

Nonetheless, there are times when control of those things is needed for local reasons, what you might do is create a single PDF form that can be printed and used for the initial handwritten entries, rather than having forms in two different Office formats.

To answer your question, and assuming that you don't want to consolidate the forms, if the two different (you say they're "practically the same") forms contain the same essential information, there's no reason particular reason that they shouldn't have separate numbers so long as the requirements for control are fulfilled. If you have a documented procedure for dimensional reporting, you can say something like "Dimensional reports are completed using form xxx, which is available in both Excel and Word formats..."

Jim covered the subject very well above...

However to answer the very specific question you have I would say NO. The very fact that you say that they are "Practically the same" (not identical) tells me that they should either BE identical, or carry different numbers.

If you feel the need to have a PDF or Word style document on file AND an Excel document for actual use, then I suggest you build the form in excel, and then create a word or PDF document by printing and scanning, or by cutting and pasting. Then save this document in your word format file.

I know if I was an auditor, and saw two forms with the same number and rev level, but that looked different...I'd be questioning the effectiveness of your document control.

Peace
James

JRKH said:

However to answer the very specific question you have I would say NO. The very fact that you say that they are "Practically the same" (not identical) tells me that they should either BE identical, or carry different numbers.

Click to expand...

Why do you think this, if the documents convey the necessary information and are properly controlled (e.g., when one gets changed, so does the other)?

Jim Wynne said:

Why do you think this, if the documents convey the necessary information and are properly controlled (e.g., when one gets changed, so does the other)?

Click to expand...

Well Jim you may be right.
But in my opinion, and without having seen the OP's documents to compare, the system strikes me as an accident waiting to happen. We have to remember that if we are talking about one document number/Rev, with two active variations, we could just as easily be talking about two, or ten....How quickly couls something like this get out of hand?
It's the principle that I object to. To me it violates K.I.S.

If it were my system, I would do as I described and create/control the document in excel, and if there was a perceived need for something in a PDF or a Word format, I'd create that directly from the Excel document. Simpler, faster to modify and perfectly clear to anyone using the documents and to any auditor.

Peace
James

JRKH said:

Well Jim you may be right.
But in my opinion, and without having seen the OP's documents to compare, the system strikes me as an accident waiting to happen. We have to remember that if we are talking about one document number/Rev, with two active variations, we could just as easily be talking about two, or ten....How quickly couls something like this get out of hand?
It's the principle that I object to. To me it violates K.I.S.

If it were my system, I would do as I described and create/control the document in excel, and if there was a perceived need for something in a PDF or a Word format, I'd create that directly from the Excel document. Simpler, faster to modify and perfectly clear to anyone using the documents and to any auditor.

Peace
James

Click to expand...

I agree with you in principle, and would most likely opt for a single iteration. Nonetheless, it's a good thing to consider the risks and potential consequences when making decisions about these things, and avoid general rules that might be needlessly restrictive.

Jim Wynne said:

I agree with you in principle, and would most likely opt for a single iteration. Nonetheless, it's a good thing to consider the risks and potential consequences when making decisions about these things, and avoid general rules that might be needlessly restrictive.

Click to expand...

Agreed.
One needs to strike a balance between being too stringent on the one hand, and too loose on the other.

In this case I think our different perspectives give the OP a wider view to consider.

Peace
James

Let me be more specific. If our ISIR's are in WORD but my PPAP form - CFG-1003 is in excel (they are the same except the header and the Word doc is used in the lab with hand writing). Does the CFG-1003 also need a form number to be in compliance with ISO 9001? I have never had form numbers for my AIAG PPAP docs before but the new company thinks there should be. Does that help?

Since it appears that what you are talking about is a "Record" sheet where one format is used for "handwriting" and the other is used for the purpose do copying the handwritten record to a typewritten record, I'd say that yes they can have the same number...Whether an auditor would agree or not, I can't say.

Peace
James

Hi Mark,
I hope that I am understanding and assisting your question. Here are thoughts and Examples:
MASTER (s) are in word (these MASTERS are password protected and can only be edited by a quality persona and all rev. are controlled by quality.
The Form that is to be filed out or referenced off the MASTER is a PDF (so the contents of the form cannot be changed.) Only the informational to generate the Record.
Same form, doc, sop, mp, tp ect......but two different programs.

Hope this helps.