5.5.2 Management Representative - Can I be held responsible for all quality matters?

[QA Colin]

ISO9001:2000 states -
Top management shall appoint a member of management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, has responsibility and authority that includes
a) ensuring that processes needed for the quality management system are established, implemented and maintained,
b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement, and
c) ensuring the promotion of awareness of customer requirements throughout the organization.
NOTE: The responsibility of a management representative can include liaison with external parties on matters relating to the quality management system.

I (QA Coordinator) report to the Workshop Manager, who reports to the Production Manager who reports to the GM and therefor I have little authority for the implenetation of new systems & procedures (I have to run everything past all ov the above - who incidently always aprove). Given this, can I still be held responsible for all quality matters? I realise the buck stops with the GM / MD, but can I be the appointed representative when I don't officialy hold a management position? Any suggestions for how I broach this with senior management?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

authority

ISO9001:2000 states - has ... and authority that ...

....I have little authority.....

I think you have already answered your question.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Aah - the old ones!

.....I have little authority for the implenetation of new systems & procedures ..... can I still be held responsible for all quality matters?

Two questions here. Should you be held responsible - No. Could you be held responsible - Yes.

I realise the buck stops with the GM / MD, but can I be the appointed representative when I don't officialy hold a management position? Any suggestions for how I broach this with senior management?

You would be surprised how far down a buck can be passed in the event of a problem. In an ideal world the GM will identify who is really responsible in the event of a failing and deal with it appropriately. The GM will probably have a good deal of power (authority) and will know where to pass the buck if he has to find a scapegoat. The best thing you can do is show your value and try to build your reputation so that - in the event of a problem - your name isn't the first one out of the hat. Sorry if this sounds a bit negative but I have seen it many times when the boss man is looking for a scapegoat.

Re the requirements in ISO. there is no requirement for a specific level of "manager" to be management rep and you are unlikely to get an auditor who questions your organization's decision.

It is very rare to get an audit finding that identifies the old chestnut of "responsibility without authority" unless other covers have some examples?

 

[Manoj Mathur]

In this context I shall cite only one example which was told by one of my QMS Auditor that an MR should be such that when He / She speaks all person should consider his / her voice as Top Management voice.

Regarding responsibility, I would say that Only pinpointing of defects/abnormalities/ NCs shall not work. I know as a successful WCM Implementor, I myself offer my whole hearted support to team who got defects/abnormalities/ NCs to remove it by networking, by Statistics, by providing resourse from senior executive and by providing motivation.

 

[tarheels4 - 2007]

Re the requirements in ISO. there is no requirement for a specific level of "manager" to be management rep and you are unlikely to get an auditor who questions your organization's decision.

It is very rare to get an audit finding that identifies the old chestnut of "responsibility without authority" unless other covers have some examples?

I agree, and the auditor is not about to intervene on behalf of the "scapegoat", else he becomes the problem.

 

[vanputten]

Responsibility and Authority

Hello QA Colin:

Have you meet the stated requirements and the intent of 5.5.2 Management representative if you do not have the authority? I would say your organization has not.

At the same time, I have never seen a formal and concious change in given authority when someone becomes the Management Rep. to the QMS. I have only seen people get the title and the responsibility. I am sure there are organizations that have given the proper authority along with the responsibility and title. I am merely stating my experience so you don't feel alone.

A solution in this situation is difficult. I believe we are discussing organizational culture more than requirements of a standard.

Regards,

Dirk

 

[chaosweary]

Responsibility Without Authority

Welcome to My World!!!

 

[Mr. Seaman]

Held Responsible For......

Q. A. Colin,
Good question, I in turn would think responsible for what? Human resources, infrastructure, work environment, product realization etc. I believe that in a perfect world under ISO all personnel are competent, trained, controlled processes, measured, monitored and validated. Getting right to the heart of the matter, any employee in any given position can perform only to a level dependent upon the resources, environment and personnel at hand. As far as a scape goat............YOU BET!" There are those people in position that have a finger that points in only one direction when it hits the fan, at you and I.

Only advise I have to offer is a tight document/record history if it does hit the fan. ISO, AS9100 and NADCAP did not sit well with a lot of people. The good ole boy culture reply was "if it aint broke why fix it!" Several of us in business weren't given a choice. Our customer base Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop etc. issued a mandate to us and all it's subtier suppliers. On this date you'll will become registered at some level or it's been nice doing work with you. I have the same issues myself, when it gets really bad I have all the authority in the world. During good plentifull times upper management "Did a Great Job!" I wonder some times how Chuck-E-Cheese became ISO registered? Just rambling good luck!

Ralph Seaman!

 

[Kevin Mader]

Meeting Requirements

I think that Dirk has it right. How can accountability be established if both parties aren't clear on the requirement or reached full agreement? Has authority been established?

As it appears, things must be escalated for approval. The MR has not been bestowed with executive level authority. Accepting responsibility without authority is business career suicide.

Regards,

Kevin

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re the requirements in ISO. there is no requirement for a specific level of "manager" to be management rep and you are unlikely to get an auditor who questions your organization's decision.

It is very rare to get an audit finding that identifies the old chestnut of "responsibility without authority" unless other covers have some examples?

Hello, mate. Actually, as a (3rd party) auditor, when it was clear the Mgt. Rep was a puppet position, I have on occasion written this up, and/or used the threat of a finding to cause Top mgt. to go through with it and give the Mgt. Rep appropriate authority. It makes a big difference (as you are all aware.)

Surprisingly, I didn't get much flak. I read it from the standard, and ask whether they did that. When they say no, I ask, "how can Mr. ___ do this job without this authority..?"

No arguments. I would recommend all you auditors write it up next time.

PS: Unusual for it to be "Top" Management, though when it is, it works really well.