Can a company refuse a Corrective Action Request from a Customer?

[Golfman25]

After all, what you have told us so far is merely that the parts are out of tolerance, NOT that they don't fit. It could very well be the tolerances are tighter than necessary for fit and function of the part.

Come on. That would never happen.

 

[hogheavenfarm]

Actually, we wouldnt know whether they fit or not, since we only supply the parts, and not all the parts. If we could fit the parts , we would acknowledge a 'non conformance', since the parts do not function as intended, (I am a big believer in function tests), but since we had neither dimensions, nor tolerances, nor parts to fit, we could not acknowledge a non function.
I was asked by the customer why we just didnt pull the dimensions from the dxf and use those, but technically our quote and contract was to cut the parts from the dxf they supplied, which we did. To confirm the parts, we were told to print a 1:1 drawing and lay them on that. From that data, I would not speculate on tolerances (or fit) at all!

 

[Wes Bucey]

Actually, we wouldnt know whether they fit or not, since we only supply the parts, and not all the parts. If we could fit the parts , we would acknowledge a 'non conformance', since the parts do not function as intended, (I am a big believer in function tests), but since we had neither dimensions, nor tolerances, nor parts to fit, we could not acknowledge a non function.
I was asked by the customer why we just didnt pull the dimensions from the dxf and use those, but technically our quote and contract was to cut the parts from the dxf they supplied, which we did. To confirm the parts, we were told to print a 1:1 drawing and lay them on that. From that data, I would not speculate on tolerances (or fit) at all!

Trust me - if they didn't fit, the feces would have hit the fan long ago.

 

[Woody]

It is important to suppress the knee jerk reactions and consider the customer's request. Try to look at these exercises as a means of improving your business. Perhaps this would be a good time to re-assess the inputs needed for issuing a quote. It may be your entire customer base is ignorant of what it should providr as inputs in outsourcing. If you begin asking questions up front, you may stand out as a supplier.

 

[Big Jim]

Very true Peg, I will keep that in mind. This (new) QA director they have is doing his job as I am doing mine. I am sure I have much more info on this than he is aware of. This seems to be typical of projects that have been ongoing for many years and then someone or something changes and everyone scrambles to find out why it was never done correctly in the beginning.
I found it odd that there was never any customer FAI or even PSI at the start, but this was over a decade ago, and maybe that was not the norm. It is now.
Wes, the CAR will be tricky, as the customer has indicated they will be sending our response to the final customer, so I have to tread carefully here. If I say we did not have [any] dimensions on the dxf, it could call into question all product made for over a decade. It could impact our customer as well.
Obviously our customer did not flow down any requirements, and we proceeded to make product according to the stated PO terms (per the dxf), so we all know what happened, just not a good thing to say out loud.
The joys of being quality director!
Anyway, I have a tactful plan for the CAR, so we will see what happens. Thank you all for your thoughts, I value them.

I know it is sensitive, and there is a lot to consider, but if you are not careful you will simply dig a deeper hole.

I would be inclined to say do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[hogheavenfarm]

Just an update on this issue.

After a very tactful report issued to the customer and a long productive talk with their new quality manager, we all agreed that the issue was that we were cutting the dxf they supplied, regardless of the fact there was no dimensional data. This let us off the hook, but left them on the hook to the final customer. As a result, we have not gotten any further orders from the customer, and I must assume they took the parts to someone else.
So sometimes, no matter what course of action you choose, you just cannot alter what is to be.
That said , I would not have done anything differently.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Just an update on this issue.

After a very tactful report issued to the customer and a long productive talk with their new quality manager, we all agreed that the issue was that we were cutting the dxf they supplied, regardless of the fact there was no dimensional data. This let us off the hook, but left them on the hook to the final customer. As a result, we have not gotten any further orders from the customer, and I must assume they took the parts to someone else.
So sometimes, no matter what course of action you choose, you just cannot alter what is to be.
That said , I would not have done anything differently.

Lest I be accused of purchasing locks for an empty barn (AFTER the livestock was stolen), the thrust of ANY conversation with the customer should be "How can we resolve this so YOUR customer will be satisfied? We are your partner in this venture and we want to help you keep this customer and expand your business with him if possible."

Diplomacy probably should NOT include the word "fault." As I see the situation, the diplomacy failed in that there was no continuing dialog with your organization's customer to learn if

• a) your customer dumped you and went elsewhere
• b) your customer got dumped by HIS customer and you are both staring at lost business
• c) the job simply dried up and no one is mad

 

[hogheavenfarm]

Wes,

The upshot after all said and done, was that we were to take the fall, (and all NC product back) as a mea culpa to continue the business relationship, with them smoothing it over on their side. Even though they agreed on what happened, that could not be passed to the final customer in any form other than "we screwed it up". So basically we were told to keep the contract, we had to suck it up, write off all the product their customer did not like (about 70 pcs at $350 per pc) and produce another 70 "good" pieces, using the same dxf that produced the 'bad' pcs.
Not a road we wanted to go down.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Wes,

The upshot after all said and done, was that we were to take the fall, (and all NC product back) as a mea culpa to continue the business relationship, with them smoothing it over on their side. Even though they agreed on what happened, that could not be passed to the final customer in any form other than "we screwed it up". So basically we were told to keep the contract, we had to suck it up, write off all the product their customer did not like (about 70 pcs at $350 per pc) and produce another 70 "good" pieces, using the same dxf that produced the 'bad' pcs.
Not a road we wanted to go down.

That wasn't a negotiation on your customer's part - that was "F--- you AND the horse you rode in on." Talk about bad faith on their part. Did you ever find out exactly what was wrong with the part?

 

[AISLECU]

Re:Third party non conformances

I'm new to this site and not sure what I'm doing so please bare with me. We recently had an audit by our customer. There was a non conforming item that was manufactured by a third party vendor. I sent them a NCR which they filled out and noted that retraining was scheduled. I got dinged because I didn't have an actual training form filled out. Has anyone experienced this? How do you handle nonconformances from outside vendors.