Internal or a lead auditor course?

[TPMB4]

There's a budget available on a first come basis for internal auditor or lead auditor. I have to choose. Which to choose?

My background is small company niche manufacturing and automotive tier 2 or 3. I've been involved in quality over 10 years before my move to big company assurance role. My audit training is only internal and tbh I've no idea how good it was. I've not a great deal of auditing experience but when I've done it I got the feeling it was common sense to me. I've been mostly involved with APQP, CAPA and a few other areas. I was heavily involved in transition to 2015 version of ISO9001. Also, I am the one escorting and liaising with the external auditor so I kind of learnt by observing them over those 10 plus years.

My colleagues all have lead auditor, however some advised on doing internal first. Most got the job and experience of auditing then did lead auditor without the internal auditor course. That's kind of where I'm at.

The courses meet the IRCA requirements for internal and lead auditor respectively and are both with the same, respected organisation I think(LRQA). I was wondering what people's views are of these two courses?

 

[Scanton]

If you were going in fresh I would recommend the Internal Audit training however as you are familiar with the standard auditing process, I personally don't see any point in doing that and would think you would get more out of the lead auditor training, especially as it seems these opportunities don't come around very often.

I had only undertaken internal audits for years on the back of some internal audit training until an opportunity came along to attend the lead audit training at "The Chartered Quality Institute". I found the course very informative and passed the practical and written exam comfortably, as I too found it to be common sense.

This is of course my humble opinion, take from it what you will.

 

[Ron Rompen]

There isn't a great deal of difference in the training, except that the Lead Auditor course also discusses/trains on audit scheduling (for the entire QMS), followup with auditors, CA followup, etc.

Given the choice, I would opt for the Lead Auditor training.

 

[Randy]

I always tell folks take an internal one unless you really, really have a need for a Lead course, and most people seldom do. I've taught over 200 Lead courses (and yes, I was an IRCA qualified instructor, as well as RAB/QSA, Exemplar Global and all that jazz), and most of the people that paid out all that money not counting travel, hotels, and everything else, wasted it. A simple 3 day course of teaching the basics, being able to actually interact instead of having to follow to the letter the accredited scheme requirements would have been more beneficial to them. In either case hopefully you'll get someone that isn't a slide flipper, with a monotone voice and personality of a clam (like some I've run into and had to observe over the years).

That's my

 

[TPMB4]

I'm joining the team that's responsible for the assurance schedule and I'm being set up to cover the coordinator role for the key processes as well as the overall audit schedule as part of the team. So perhaps the lead might be best.

My concern is that the lead auditor course is a higher level and harder. With auditing I always have the feeling I'm finding it too easy and I'm missing something of the black arts so to speak. I know I'll pass it but to build up confidence I have this thought I should play safe and do the internal then the lead.

Practically lead is where I need to be so I should just do it. Even if I'm fail the training part will give me more of what I need to know.

Thanks for your opinions on this. It's helpful to read them as we all see things differently.

 

[Randy]

I'm joining the team that's responsible for the assurance schedule and I'm being set up to cover the coordinator role for the key processes as well as the overall audit schedule as part of the team. So perhaps the lead might be best.

My concern is that the lead auditor course is a higher level and harder. With auditing I always have the feeling I'm finding it too easy and I'm missing something of the black arts so to speak. I know I'll pass it but to build up confidence I have this thought I should play safe and do the internal then the lead.

Practically lead is where I need to be so I should just do it. Even if I'm fail the training part will give me more of what I need to know.

Thanks for your opinions on this. It's helpful to read them as we all see things differently.

Apparently the process is already in place and functioning, the only real difference in a Lead and Internal is the time and expense to cover initially setting up and audit program and developing an audit staff. Looks like those blocks have been checked. Getting past all the hype and hoopala, a Lead course is only really necessary for 1 of 2 real world reasons.

1-it's absolutely required for you to do so by an employer or through or because of some other mandate
2- you as an individual plan to enter into the 3rd party auditing world working for a CB, such as myself and a few others here in the Cove.

I have audited a ton of well managed programs where not one person had attended a Lead course. I'm not saying don't take any training, what I'm saying is, if you already possess the competence, why waste time & money?

 

[Johnnymo62]

I would take the Lead Auditor course, if I was you. I think you've been exposed to enough of the basics of auditing because of the experiences you described. They will go over everything again in a decent Lead course.

 

[TPMB4]

Well the one space on the lead auditor course got allocated to me over the other two newbies at the company. Registering today for June course. Then the prep will begin!

Now I'm wondering what prep to do. Obviously make sure my iso 9001 knowledge is as strong as it can be. I'll be speaking to my mentor at work, he's very experienced so hopefully get good advice.

I'll be brushing up my knowledge on the standard, quality principles in iso 9000, PDCA, common quality terms, etc. I know these are all things I should know before, and I do, but it can only help to refresh my knowledge. I'm probably over thinking it but anything else you'd recommend brushing up on before the course starts? On top of the audits I'm actually on with that is.

 

[Randy]

Don't do anything special. I found that the folks who studied and were mentored and got psych'd all up didn't fare as well as those that came in cold not "knowing it all". But then again I only taught about 200 or so of the things so what would I know?

 

[Johnnymo62]

I think you should review the most recent ISO 19011 standard for auditing. It was part of the Lead Auditor course I took in 2017.