Management Review ISO 9001-2015

[Mike S.]

This is not and never has been the job of the 3rd party auditor.

Really? Please tell us your qualifications and reasoning for making such a statement?

Do you understand that Randy has audited and taught these standards professionally, full-time, for many years?

Have you seen how many times "effective" "effectiveness" etc. appears in the standard?

Of what use is a process that is documented and followed but not effective? Seems to me that determining effectiveness is a big part of the audit.

 

[RoxaneB]

The Cove is all about personal opinion and most comments in threads are based upon it. When anything regarding ISO 9001 implementation is discussed, we must understand that there's a clear and distinct difference between what the requirements are about - based on implementation - and what is done to pass an audit. Both are very apropos here. When there's balance to viewpoints, posters and readers alike are best informed in their choices.

You've misunderstood my comment, Andy.

To comment on the role of the 3rd party CB auditor in determining the effectiveness (of the OPs original topic re: management review), that's one thing.

The broad brush comments including words/phrases such as "clearly" and "all around us" are descriptive terms lacking evidentiary support.

At the end of the day, however, if this thread is about to switch rails over into the topic of the role of the auditor, I encourage folks to start a new discussion as it's off-topic from the original post.

 

[Big Jim]

It is! Guaranteed. What people do it make the biggest mistake of setting up a regular calendar of reviews. It's NOT required. It says they have to be planned. Do them when there's something to review. Weekly isn't going to work IMHO because audits are supposed to be factored in so unless you have weekly audits what's the point. Have a review when indicators suggest there's something to work on. Everything "green"? Why review? Got a "yellow"? Know why? Got anything at "red"? Better review it.

We may have to agree to disagree. I totally feel that once a year is terribly inadequate!

Wait a year to discuss how your metrics are trending? Wait a year to discuss how to handle risks encountered? Wait a year to determine action items? Wait a year to discuss external and internal issues? Ignoring the topics in 9.3 for a year is suicidal.

I'm in favor of quarterly management reviews and trending the metrics at least monthly if not weekly or even daily.

 

[Big Jim]

It's a low bar.

It's a higher bar than yours!

 

[Big Jim]

This may be true - but only after the fact. If the people in an organization have no clue about what the intention of the review is how would they know "what works"? We constantly hear what is done to satisfy auditors, but rarely what satisfies management! In the rush to become certified, the organization only needs to do one review. After that? What's the benchmark? Once, twice? All inputs? Maybe a 3rd party auditor doesn't particularly have a view on that - cool. They aren't supposed to. It should be an activity which is part of the operation of the company and done because it's the right thing - meeting, report review or something else. So, what does an effective review look like? When should it be done? Who should participate? What are the out comes?

If the company want's to be ineffective and fail, let them do so. It is their choice.

 

[Big Jim]

This is not and never has been the job of the 3rd party auditor. Your colleagues in the industry clearly don't do that either. The evidence is all around us.

You should read 4.4.1 c again. Yep, there it is, the word effective as it applies to their quality management system.

 

[Big Jim]

The Cove is all about personal opinion and most comments in threads are based upon it. When anything regarding ISO 9001 implementation is discussed, we must understand that there's a clear and distinct difference between what the requirements are about - based on implementation - and what is done to pass an audit. Both are very apropos here. When there's balance to viewpoints, posters and readers alike are best informed in their choices.

So keep your comments balanced instead of lopsided.