Registrars offering to perform Second Party Audits - Have they failed their role?

[AndyN]

In 21+ years you believe that NQA, USA's only issued fewer than 5000 certificates? How accurate is the IAAR's data?

 

[Randy]

In 21+ years you believe that NQA, USA's only issued fewer than 5000 certificates? How accurate is the IAAR's data?

Looks kinda messed up, it doesn't list the CB I do most of my work for, nor does it list Sidney's employer.....

 

[AndyN]

Looks kinda messed up, it doesn't list the CB I do most of my work for, nor does it list Sidney's employer.....

There are quite a few CBs notable by their absence, Randy.

 

[Big Jim]

There are quite a few CBs notable by their absence, Randy.

From what I have heard, the ones missing are the ones that choose not to be listed there. It's a voluntary thing.

 

[GreenQuality]

The IAAR list is used for IAAR membership marketing purposes and does not represent all ANAB registrars. Using the scheme as represented by the list PJR represents themselves to be the largest registrar however my current registrar has three time the certs as represented by the list... Getting back to the original issue, as long as a client wants to contract out their internal audits to their accredited registrar and the registrar uses a separate auditor group to perform the service then auditor impartiality could be maintained. Many small companies contract their audits out these days and the competent regristrars maintain separate audit groups to support he activity.

 

[Reg Morrison]

Getting back to the original issue, as long as a client wants to contract out their internal audits to their accredited registrar and the registrar uses a separate auditor group to perform the service then auditor impartiality could be maintained.

Not really; ISO 17021 explicitly prohibits that practice.

5.2.6 The certification body and any part of the same legal entity shall not offer or provide internal audits to its certified clients. The certification body shall not certify a management system on which it provided internal audits within two years following the end of the internal audits. This also applies to that part of government identified as the certification body.

5.2.7 The certification body shall not certify a management system on which a client has received management system consultancy or internal audits, where the relationship between the consultancy organization and the certification body poses an unacceptable threat to the impartiality of the certification body.

http :// www. anab. org/ media/47297/hu147.pdf - DEA DLINK REMOVED.

For a very similar reason a CB cannot conduct internal audits for its certified clients. However, a CB can conduct internal audits for other organizations (non-certified clients). Internal audits are specifically addressed in ISO/IEC 17021:2006, in clauses 5.2.6 and 5.2.7. A CB should apply
these same clauses when offering to conduct second-party audits related to ISO 9001.

But where is the policing when you need it?

Thanks, anyway, for more evidence to show how the system is broken.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

It's a voluntary thing.

That is correct, Big Jim It is a voluntary participation by CB's in the database. That's exactly why the IAF database (IAF Database - Repository of (properly) Accredited Management System Certs) will fail, as well. It will be launched with great pomp and fanfare and it will show "explosive certification numbers" in the first two years of existence, but once people realize that the numbers are not reliable and participation is not mandatory, gradually, some of the participating CB's will cease to share their data, leading to the same downward spiral that "doomed" the IAAR database.

 

[dsanabria]

Not really; ISO 17021 explicitly prohibits that practice.

DEAD LINK REMOVED

BuT where is the policing when you need it?

Thanks, anyway, for more evidence to show how the system is broken.

This is easily done by slightly changing the name of the registrar and WALA - a entity did the audit (same people and same registrar).

Furthermore, Training is also done the same way...

 

[AndyN]

This is easily done by slightly changing the name of the registrar and WALA

WALA? What is this, an acronym?

 

[AndyN]

I'd be just as worried about auditors who do both - CB audits and then also contract as internal/supplier auditors. I've seen some of the results...