Troubled ISO System - Chronic quality issues and complaints - No management support

[gregfish]

All,

I recently accepted a position with a company who has been ISO certified for a number of years.

One of the reasons I was hired was because they were struggling with meeting their customer requirments and have been suffering from chronic quality issues and complaints.

I very quickly learned that the organization believes their ISO system is excellent as their 3rd party auditor (same guy for the last 4 years!) never found anything wrong.

One of the very first things I did was perform a plant-wide internal audit. Based on 20 years of ISO experience I wrote up a report that included 40 findings - 15 of which are majors!

After submitting my report to mgt and repeatedly receiving no reponse I requested mtgs to discuss and was told they are not concerned about an upcoming surveillance audit (2 weeks away) and that's why they hired me - to fix these kinds of problems.

Wow! Now I believe that I am destined to spend a couple of days with an auditor as he/she rips us a new one (or at least rightfully should).

Any advice?

 

[asutherland]

Although not my speciality, I would like to offer my opinion. You welcome to use or disregard as you see fit.

If the auditor has been the same person over the last 4 yrs, there is really no reason to believe that this person will see anything more or less than they usually see. (Unless of course you show them different, which I would definitely NOT do).
As a new person, you can always say, "being new, I didn't see that, what do you recommend?". Not a good idea to open a can of worms here.

If your primary function is to understand, support and develop the internal quality systems to help reduce customer defects and complaints .... I would recommend that your focus be there.

I find it unlikely that the auditor is really going to rip you a new one...

Worse case is, if it does happen, just follow the non-complient note response procedure and close each item one at a time.

 

[Jen Kirley]

Welcome to The Cove, Gregfish!

It sounds as though your management is so happy with the fact your registrar keeps coming back and saying "No problem-o!" that they have adopted a "What, me worry?" attitude to what you say is wrong.

It's a common misunderstanding that achieving and renewing ISO registration means a company is performing well. But the real indicator is happy customers, (which ISO is designed to help with but certainly doesn't guarantee) and since you say there are chronic problems then obviously there is work to be done.

But the management said you should fix the problems, which is another clue that they simply aren't engaged--"Quality is the Quality Department's business, not mine." Or, they may simply be implying that but really mean it is your prerogative to manage, facilitate or push-tug the necessary changes to fix problems. "You're the expert, go ahead."

If you can show some of your findings are related to those customer complaints, you can hit them hardest. Focus first on the processes involved rather than people, seek to error-proof if you can, or approach the needs in other appropriate ways.

If your findings are not related to the complaints and/or acknowledged problems, you may find yourself in arguments since the registrar has said "No problem-o!" and yet you found all these things. If you bring in a new registrar--one who will agree with your findings, you won't be helping your position any. Your management might resent you for apparently inviting trouble.

Two weeks sounds like an emergency but it's not. I would pick the low hanging fruit first, the findings that are related to the customer complaints and problems. If you open CARs on these findings and start working on them, the registrar will duly note that the system is functioning and that's fine.

I'd keep this same registrar for now, until you can get some carefully prioritized changes made. Hopefully you will gain your management's confidence and can very gradually become more aggressive. That will probably require lots of patience and discipline on your part.

I hope this helps!

 

[gregfish]

Thanks for your thoughts asutherland and Jennifer.

One point I missed in my intro is the fact that the registrar has acknowledged that the normal auditor has been at this company too long and is sending someone new.

I like the "low hanging fruit" approach and opening CARs for all the issues identified.

All of my findings very directly relate to the current customer disatisfaction but my perception is that my management truly does not understand the value of a system and the importance of current documented procedures. Looks like I have an uphill battle and only time and lots of efforts will tell.

Thanks again!

 

[Jim Wynne]

Several years ago I interviewed for a position under circumstances very much like the ones you describe. Management was looking for a messiah to come in and wave a magic wand and make all of the problems go away. As soon as I was told that the incumbent quality manager wasn't getting the job done, and that customers weren't happy, I asked the interviewer (a VP of operations) if he thought that product quality was the responsibility of the quality manager. He looked at me like I was crazy, and said, "Of course it is--the maintenance manager is responsible for maintenance, the purchasing manager is responsible for purchasing, and the quality manager is responsible for quality." I thanked him for his time, politely suggested that our philosophies were different, and got the heck out.

Looks like I have an uphill battle and only time and lots of efforts will tell.

I hope you're not just reenacting the Myth of Sisyphus and that you can help your bosses to see the light. Don't hesitate to come here for help and moral support as you go along.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I thanked him for his time, politely suggested that our philosophies were different, and got the heck out.

Jim, you are my hero for the day.

It takes guts to do that. But what you wrote is sooooo true. If the big kahunas think that quality is the responsibility of the quality manager, you know that they simply don't get it. In the medium and long term, I am sure you saved yourself a lot of grief.

I also have a related case. A few years ago I did a sales call with a company here in So Cal. They are (scary) a manufacturer of commercial aviation parts and were looking to be certified to ISO 9001. I got there and the contact person (QC Manager) takes me to his "office" and then, before I can even ask a few questions, he asks me to follow a technician to the back of the shop, where a computer was located. The technician proceeds to show me some "SPC charts", as instructed by the QC Manager. I keep quiet. After 5 minutes or so of glancing at the SPC charts on the screen, the tech takes me back to the QC Mgr.'s office. As I get there, he immediately asks me:
- So, what do you think of our "quality system"?
- Well, I saw some charts, but the quality system is much more encompassing than that....
- What do you mean?
- Well, what about the design, sales, purchasing, etc. processes?
Deer and the headlight describes well his expression at that moment...
To make a not so long story shorter, I was there a few more minutes before I told him that the registrar I work for would not be a good fit for his organization....

 

[Jen Kirley]

One point I missed in my intro is the fact that the registrar has acknowledged that the normal auditor has been at this company too long and is sending someone new...All of my findings very directly relate to the current customer disatisfaction but my perception is that my management truly does not understand the value of a system and the importance of current documented procedures. Looks like I have an uphill battle and only time and lots of efforts will tell...

This is a good point, I'm glad you made it.

A new auditor certainly could upset your managers' little apple cart! This story could get mightly interesting as it plays out.

Since you say all of your findings are related to the customer satisfaction problems, then you can be assertive. Opening CARs is your prerogative, and your management said to you, "Fix it" and so there you go. It sounds like they will not pursue the problems without such a process to facilitate them.

It will be interesting to hear what the new auditor says, which might after all be very little since they are not supposed to consult; but they can voice levels of approval of what you've done if you ask in specific terms.

Your management's culture sounds narrow minded but if you show the dollar value of approaching improvement before customers defect or even before problems have a chance to grow to any size, you may win them over in time.

We are here for you.

 

[Jim Wynne]

I told him that the registrar I work for would not be a good fit for his organization....

A good and unusual move on your part. I'm sure he was able to find a registrar who would be duly impressed.
In a similar vein, I was visiting a supplier a few years ago and the QM very proudly showed me their real-time SPC system. There were monitors at each machine displaying charts with red, green and yellow bands (they were obviously precontrol charts). I asked each of the operators I talked to what the colored bands meant, and I got a different answer from each one, and I also got a different (wrong) answer separately from the QM. Sure looked purty, though.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Welcome to the Cove, Greg I see that good advice has been offered and taken here already

One point I missed in my intro is the fact that the registrar has acknowledged that the normal auditor has been at this company too long and is sending someone new.

Even so, I doubt that there will be a massacre. If you open CAR:s and start working on the findings from that plant-wide internal audit the auditor should note that as something positive.

All of my findings very directly relate to the current customer disatisfaction but my perception is that my management truly does not understand the value of a system and the importance of current documented procedures.

A good auditor should pick that up as well.

I suppose you're in for a struggle, but somehow I don't think the audit should be your greatest worry. It may very well turn out in your favour. Please keep us updated, and above all: Good luck

/Claes

 

[Randy]

I sure hope your auditor doesn't work for us (or Sid's folks either) because this sounds like a come in, have lunch, write the report and bail for 6 months thing to me.