Internal Audits - Can I do them all?

NiceTom · Oct 14, 2011

Hello All,
I'm newly hired as the Quality Manager/MR, at a small machine shop. In the past, they've used an outside consultant to conduct a full internal audit annually (approx. 10 months ago). I don't see any evidence of an audit schedule being set for 2011, but they certainly need to be done.

I know you can't audit your own work, but seeing as I'm new here, can I conduct an internal audit of all areas? Some portions of the QMS, I have responsibility for, and by next year it would be my area being audited. But at this time, none of the things being audited would have my name on them (except for very recently).

Thanks

AndyN · Oct 14, 2011

NiceTom said:
Hello All,
I'm newly hired as the Quality Manager/MR, at a small machine shop. In the past, they've used an outside consultant to conduct a full internal audit annually (approx. 10 months ago). I don't see any evidence of an audit schedule being set for 2011, but they certainly need to be done.

I know you can't audit your own work, but seeing as I'm new here, can I conduct an internal audit of all areas? Some portions of the QMS, I have responsibility for, and by next year it would be my area being audited. But at this time, none of the things being audited would have my name on them (except for very recently).

Thanks

Tom - welcome!

I believe that initially, you could do this. Since the "audit of the audits" can't be done until later on, then you should be good.

You'll have to do better than 1 a year, however...how did the consultant (or anyone) get away with THAT? What was your CB auditor thinking when they audited it for compliance to 8.2.2?:mg:

NiceTom · Oct 14, 2011

AndyN said:
Tom - welcome!

I believe that initially, you could do this. Since the "audit of the audits" can't be done until later on, then you should be good.

You'll have to do better than 1 a year, however...how did the consultant (or anyone) get away with THAT? What was your CB auditor thinking when they audited it for compliance to 8.2.2?:mg:

I'm not sure I understand, tell me more-the procedures call for each element to be audited at least annually.

AndyN · Oct 14, 2011

Sure Tom! 8.2.2. basically states that your audit program should be based on the status and importance of the processes, and results of previous audits. So, this could mean auditing things affecting your processes which have changed, or new or are under performing, (the 'status') as a priority over anything else you have to audit. Add to that, those processes which affect the customer, regulatory compliance (maybe) or $$$ and you have a different set of things to think about. I'm frankly surprised that your consultant didn't know better and, that your auditor didn't make an issue of this before now (I guess they might have in passing...) See this for more: http://www.nqa-usa.com/resources/articles_detail.php?id=48

Big Jim · Oct 14, 2011

NiceTom said:
Hello All,
I'm newly hired as the Quality Manager/MR, at a small machine shop. In the past, they've used an outside consultant to conduct a full internal audit annually (approx. 10 months ago). I don't see any evidence of an audit schedule being set for 2011, but they certainly need to be done.

I know you can't audit your own work, but seeing as I'm new here, can I conduct an internal audit of all areas? Some portions of the QMS, I have responsibility for, and by next year it would be my area being audited. But at this time, none of the things being audited would have my name on them (except for very recently).

Thanks

The short answer to your question is no, you cannot be the only internal auditor. You cannot do a complete internal audit without auditing your own work. Attempting to do it yourself is a very likely target for a nonconformance.

It should not be difficult to overcome that obstacle though. Surely you can find someone within your organization that you can train to at least minimally share the duties with you. Alternatively, you may see if you have a friendly customer with a competent internal auditor that would be willing to help out with a minimal look over that part of your system.

Jen Kirley · Oct 14, 2011

I agree that while you are still new and haven't done work you would be auditing, you can audit everything. I would actually advocate that, as I think it's worthwhile to get a whole-picture view of what's going on.

But Andy is also right in that not everything needs to be audited yearly. You can decide what will be stretched out to two years or eventually as much as three years for a mature system - but if an issue is found then the schedule tightens up for that process. However, registrars expect to see certain critical processes (like direct production of product or service) audited as often as yearly.

Once you've done your audits you can get an idea of priorities to set based on what affects whom and the gravity of the outcome.

Does that make sense?

Big Jim · Oct 15, 2011

Jennifer Kirley said:
I agree that while you are still new and haven't done work you would be auditing, you can audit everything. I would actually advocate that, as I think it's worthwhile to get a whole-picture view of what's going on.

But Andy is also right in that not everything needs to be audited yearly. You can decide what will be stretched out to two years or eventually as much as three years for a mature system - but if an issue is found then the schedule tightens up for that process. However, registrars expect to see certain critical processes (like direct production of product or service) audited as often as yearly.

Once you've done your audits you can get an idea of priorities to set based on what affects whom and the gravity of the outcome.

Does that make sense?

Don't forget that the standard prohibits you from auditing your own work. That alone means that you can't be the only auditor. There is no way around that.

Jen Kirley · Oct 15, 2011

Big Jim said:
Don't forget that the standard prohibits you from auditing your own work. That alone means that you can't be the only auditor. There is no way around that.

This is true, but notice I said "while you are still new and haven't done work." After doing a round of audits and making plans based on what he's learned, he can get to work on the system and his ability to audit is curtailed to exclude that which he is responsible for.

So for this plan to work he must start immediately and not get involved in things he audits until afterward. Later someone else must audit those things. Sound fair?

Big Jim · Oct 15, 2011

Jennifer Kirley said:
This is true, but notice I said "while you are still new and haven't done work." After doing a round of audits and making plans based on what he's learned, he can get to work on the system and his ability to audit is curtailed to exclude that which he is responsible for.

So for this plan to work he must start immediately and not get involved in things he audits until afterward. Later someone else must audit those things. Sound fair?

I understand your point. The remaining question is just how much time does he have? Certainly not enough to get him through a full round of auditing. No matter what, it is an awkward position.

AndyN · Oct 15, 2011

Big Jim said:
Certainly not enough to get him through a full round of auditing.

What's a 'full round'? Why do you say that he has to do this?

Internal Audits - Can I do them all?

NiceTom

AndyN

Moved On

NiceTom

AndyN

Moved On

Big Jim

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert

Big Jim

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert

Big Jim

AndyN

Moved On

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