Requirement for PPAPs from all Suppliers

Tom CZ · Jun 10, 2014

Hi all,

our customer during audit rebuked us for not having PPAPs for all supplied items but I know from my experiences that some supplier (even nominated by different customers above us) don?t know what is PPAP or is just not willing to created it and submit.

I work for company which is usually as Tier 3 in automotive. I understand the reason why to submit PPAPs to our customers but my questions are:
1) is anywhere strictly said that all supplier in chain (Tier 4, Tier 5 ...) must submit the PPAP ?
2) or is defined anywhere that from some level xxx lower this is not requested ?

Example: Lot of parts is molded from plastics. It is clear that supplier of "lever" will submit PPAP. But supplier of resin (granulate) as well ? Oil well should be also PPAPed ? Where is the end ?

Thanks for advice.
Best regards
Tomas

qusys · Jun 10, 2014

Tom CZ said:
Hi all,

our customer during audit rebuked us for not having PPAPs for all supplied items but I know from my experiences that some supplier (even nominated by different customers above us) don?t know what is PPAP or is just not willing to created it and submit.

I work for company which is usually as Tier 3 in automotive. I understand the reason why to submit PPAPs to our customers but my questions are:
1) is anywhere strictly said that all supplier in chain (Tier 4, Tier 5 ...) must submit the PPAP ?
2) or is defined anywhere that from some level xxx lower this is not requested ?

Example: Lot of parts is molded from plastics. It is clear that supplier of "lever" will submit PPAP. But supplier of resin (granulate) as well ? Oil well should be also PPAPed ? Where is the end ?

Thanks for advice.
Best regards
Tomas

You can check similar posts in the bottom of this page.
However it depends on your requirements vs your suppliers. ISO TS requires the organization shall conform to a product and mfg process approval procedure recognized by the customer. This procedure shall also be applied to the suppliers.

lk2012 · Jun 10, 2014

hi Tomas,
suppliers under TS16949 should be submitting PPAP documentation into as many levels as possible. Your suppliers in lower tiers should be submitting their PPAP including their sub-components approval. In case of moulded parts, it might be good to adopt a practical approach and look at the type of material the supplier produces. For example, a supplier of resin would have to declare on 'bulk' material.
Hope this helps
Lil

Carol I · Sep 8, 2014

Hi,
I also had the same question as Tomas. We are a resin supplier (bulk material) to a molding customer who is a Tier 2-3 automotive supplier. This customer recently audited us and found a deficiency in that we do not require PPAPs from all of our suppliers. (Our suppliers would provide materials such as fiberglass, mineral, pigments, etc.). I do not see the value in requiring our suppliers to provide PPAP for bulk industrial grade materials that are not specifically designed for an ultimate application in a vehicle. We purchase these materials based on specification and verify through certificates of analysis. Also we do not have a formal request from our customer for PPAP. I have not been able to locate in the PPAP manual where this requirement would trickle down to all sub-suppliers. Any thoughts?

thanks!

WCHorn · Sep 8, 2014

From AIAG?s PPAP, 4th edition, the introduction on page 1 under ?Applicability? says that Bulk Material PPAP is not required unless specified by the authorized customer representative. Has the customer so specified through their purchase orders and related documents? If not, then no PPAP is required. If they?ve done so only verbally, get it in writing.

Going to section F.1, the requirement is for Bulk Material PPAPs to an organization (look in the Glossary and see the definition of ?organization?) supplying bulk materials. So far, so good.

Paragraph F.2 (Applicability), however, cites that organizations are responsible for applying PPAP to their suppliers of ingredients which have organization-designated special characteristics. My take is that if you haven?t identified special characteristics for the bulk material, you can stop right there; PPAP is not required.

The shotgun approach your customer takes is a tremendous drain on resources that could otherwise be spent productively in continuing process improvement. Let?s face it, shoving this down the supply chain creates file stuffers, not value, in my opinion. Also, you?re getting into a territory that deals with proprietary information such as formulations.

Tom CZ said:
Example: Lot of parts is molded from plastics. It is clear that supplier of "lever" will submit PPAP. But supplier of resin (granulate) as well ?

Regarding your question, if the resin is not specified by the customer, then no PPAP is required. Even if they disagree there, you still don?t have to get a PPAP unless you have designated special characteristics.

Carol I · Sep 8, 2014

Thanks WC. Our customer had not (up until the audit) required PPAP either verbally or in writing. They did verbally request this at the end of the audit. We do supply PPAPs for our resins when requested, but I agree that to require them of our suppliers is a resource drain, and non-value-added. We do not technically have organization-designated special characteristics that we require for our purchased products, but we have a detailed raw material approval process for each material, and purchase to specifications.
I think citing F.2 for this argument will be useful.

thanks again,
Carol

qusys · Sep 9, 2014

WCHorn said:
From AIAG?s PPAP, 4th edition, the introduction on page 1 under ?Applicability? says that Bulk Material PPAP is not required unless specified by the authorized customer representative. Has the customer so specified through their purchase orders and related documents? If not, then no PPAP is required. If they?ve done so only verbally, get it in writing.

Going to section F.1, the requirement is for Bulk Material PPAPs to an organization (look in the Glossary and see the definition of ?organization?) supplying bulk materials. So far, so good.

Paragraph F.2 (Applicability), however, cites that organizations are responsible for applying PPAP to their suppliers of ingredients which have organization-designated special characteristics. My take is that if you haven?t identified special characteristics for the bulk material, you can stop right there; PPAP is not required.

The shotgun approach your customer takes is a tremendous drain on resources that could otherwise be spent productively in continuing process improvement. Let?s face it, shoving this down the supply chain creates file stuffers, not value, in my opinion. Also, you?re getting into a territory that deals with proprietary information such as formulations.

Regarding your question, if the resin is not specified by the customer, then no PPAP is required. Even if they disagree there, you still don?t have to get a PPAP unless you have designated special characteristics.

Agree on this.
I would like to add something on this detailed and usefull answer. In a practical way, if an organization buys " ingredients" on catalogue from their supplier, without any particular request, PPAP could be amended. In alternative if it requests "ingredients" with ad hoc characteristics only for that organization , PPAP should be issues and agreed with supplier, because FMEA, Control plan etc are must to control this characteristics.

Requirement for PPAPs from all Suppliers

Tom CZ

qusys

lk2012

Carol I

WCHorn

Rubber, Too Glamorous?

Carol I

qusys

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