TS 16949 Clause 8.2.4.1 - Yearly Layout Inspection Requirements

Layout inspection

Can TS16949 section 8.2.4.1 be interpreted to mean a repeat of sampling every year?

Hermann said:

Can TS16949 section 8.2.4.1 be interpreted to mean a repeat of sampling every year?

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I don't see the annual requirement anywhere in that statement. I do think that some of the big three (Ford) require annual reviews on their products. This might be where you are getting this.

I would like to add to your questions if I may????

Is this a annual requirement based on TS and/or customer specific requirements (big three), but what if you are a service provider (heat Treat) and are not responsible for design and development of product? How can this 8.2.4.1 apply? The Standard says exclusions can only be under 7.3???? We don't do layout inspections and the closest we come to functional testing is harness testing and related Heat Treat testing.

What does your control plan say, for layout inspections and functional verification??
If it is not in your control plan than I would say 8.2.4.1 does not apply. This doesn't mean you can "exclude" this requirement. It's just N/A.

For example:
We manufacture seat frames, therefore those control plans call out frequency of layout and verification.
We also, e-coat and powder coat. Those control plans do not call out for any layouts.

Hope this helps!

Teri said:

What does your control plan say, for layout inspections and functional verification??
If it is not in your control plan than I would say 8.2.4.1 does not apply. This doesn't mean you can "exclude" this requirement. It's just N/A.

For example:
We manufacture seat frames, therefore those control plans call out frequency of layout and verification.
We also, e-coat and powder coat. Those control plans do not call out for any layouts.

Hope this helps!

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Speaking for my question; our control plans do not address layout inspection or functional testing because we do not do it as described in the standard. It is actually not even an option for us, our customers would not want us to do this for them; proprietary designs and such. I do not see in Annex A where this has to be on the control plan.

As a manufacturer I am sure your control plans would have to address this. Ours do not.

8.2.4.1
A layout inspection and functional verification to app. customer engineering material and performance standards shall be performed for each product as specified in the control plans.

Maybe I am reading this wrong?
It may or may not be applicable to your situation and/or processes.

I see what you are saying. I would like to get clarrification on that. I understand that to mean that IF you say in your control plan that you do it, then you set the frequency and such. But it doesn't mean you have to have it in the control plan???

Since 8.2.4.1 is not applicable to our service provided, do you think we can just address this in our manual as this in not applicable to our organization. In effect excluding it with out say we are excluding it.

I see what you are saying. I would like to get clarrification on that. I understand that to mean that IF you say in your control plan that you do it, then you set the frequency and such. But it doesn't mean you have to have it in the control plan???

Since 8.2.4.1 is not applicable to our service provided, do you think we can just address this in our manual as this in not applicable to our organization. In effect excluding it with out say we are excluding it.

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Ah, I think we are getting closer here. For example: Servicing is not something we do. When I first wrote our manual, I said we excluded that. Wrong answer!
So, I simply stated, that at this time servicing did not apply to our organization.
Bingo! Registrar had no problem with that statement!

As long as your customers are approving PPAP's, it is not in your control plan and basically does not apply to you, I don't know why, IMO, that you couldn't do the same thing.

Excellent - that is the approach I took. We address it only to say we don't do it. Thanks for the feedback.

I would like to add a question, may I?

What is the way to inform customer if requirements are not met in a layout inspection?

Still I have two cases that I'll explain:

1 - A layout inspection is done and some of the drawing specifications didn't match (e.g. diameter below spec.). This specifications are not critical or safety characteristics. Should I inform customer or just do an action plan without informing customer?

2 - A layout inspection is done and some of the drawing specifications didn't match (e.g. diameter below spec.). This specifications were not considered on the current PPAP which was approved by customer, even without measuring all drawing specification (e.g. just 10 of 13 specifications ballooned. Should I inform customer or just do an action plan without informing customer?

Thank you!
Ps:This is my first post

Tom W said:

I see what you are saying. I would like to get clarrification on that. I understand that to mean that IF you say in your control plan that you do it, then you set the frequency and such. But it doesn't mean you have to have it in the control plan???

Since 8.2.4.1 is not applicable to our service provided, do you think we can just address this in our manual as this in not applicable to our organization. In effect excluding it with out say we are excluding it.

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If annual layouts are required by your customer, then you must do them. And, that activity belongs on your control plan because it is considered one of the controls on your processes.

Since TS only allows an exclusion for Product Design, simply saying that Servicing does not apply at this times would be acceptable in your manual, if you choose to add that.