Agreed, Reg. My only observation is that, from years of being here at the Cove, the 2nd party process (with their auditors) is broken more badly than anyone claims the 3rd party process is...
I don't have my own dog in this fight, but I feel qualified to comment.
First point: Is there anyone who argues that certification/registration (regardless of the registrar identity) is anything more than someone attesting the auditee has met the MINIMUM standards for meeting a Standard?
Second point: Almost every 3rd party auditor says up front they monitor "processes," NOT "products," so customers who require suppliers to get 3rd party audits STILL have no idea whether the products will meet customer requirements even if the supplier is certified/registered.
Third point: There are "some" (very few) non-registrar auditing firms that purport to monitor product quality as well as process quality, but (to my knowledge) no surveys of the clients of such firms exist to assure product quality has improved (at a net savings of cost of audit versus cost of poor quality) to justify hiring such non-registrar auditing firms.
Fourth point: Has anyone knowledge of the REAL reasons organizations hire
[what are for all intents and purposes] temporary workers to audit suppliers instead of assigning their own full time staff? (Do such clients really use the data gathered in evaluating a supplier or is it just as Reg Morrison suggests
"because they are cheap and "generate a record" of supplier oversight that can be filed and shown to regulatory agencies and external parties"?)
Fifth point: Anecdotally, from my own personal experience and by no means suggesting it is workable for the average customer organization, I have hired "specialists" on an ad hoc basis to investigate and monitor CRUCIAL suppliers once a contract was issued when it was logistically impossible for me or one of my employees competent enough to perform the task to be present during the necessary time window. I consider this a variation of the method the Department of Defense used to monitor defense contractors. These specialists monitored ONLY those aspects of a supplier which directly impinged on products we bought, not their other business. Thus, we scrutinized raw materials (source, analysis, traceability), production methods and control plans, in-process inspection, in-house process for root cause analysis and corrective action if and when a nonconformance was detected.
Stuff like licenses, union contracts, financial stability, etc. were all checked and vetted BEFORE we signed a contract and were not part of the purview of the on-site investigator/monitor (not auditor) and we expected much more than a "snapshot" of this crucial supplier from the specialist. We empowered this specialist to act in our behalf to halt production of our product if, in his opinion, events went beyond parameters we MUTUALLY established with the supplier. Make no mistake, we discussed and negotiated this oversight as part of the contract with the supplier. We never would have thought of arbitrarily imposing it unilaterally.
Where did I get these "specialists?"
Almost all were either independent consultants or retired specialists known personally to me to be qualified for the particular industry they would monitor. Some of the retired ones, in fact, worked ONLY for me, partly as a personal favor and partly for the extra spending money. Another factor was they were headquartered close to the supplier so extra expenses for travel and lodging were minimal. One important attribute was they had no Kwality Kop attitudes - they were introduced to and viewed by suppliers as an important resource to help in
resolving issues, not creating issues.