CQI-11 and 12 assessor's Evidence in 2.

[Atsushi koiwa]

Hello, can anybody help?
My compay is out-sourcing plating and coating. And we need to do CQI-11/12 assessment requested by customer, so covering this assessments for couple years. This company is supplier of automotive parts, mainly using turning centers, but do not have any heat/plating/coating facilities.

Now, TS16949 assessor mentioned that none of employee in my company does not possess evidence for 2. assessor's qualifications, which is decribed in AIAG manual.
And he said my company is non complient...:truce:

But the reason why we outsource Coating/plating is we don't have such skill(In my compnay, it is not required, however it is nice to have.)

The assessor requirement No.2 is too heavy and not realistics to small company like I belongs to. We cannot afford buying such a person for this assessment.

How can I manage this "requirement No.2" to make TS16949 assessor satisfied? Any advices?
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Following statements are coming from AIAG manual (almost common for CQI-11 and 12 except for “PLATING”/”COATING”

“Assessor(s) shall have following specific experience to conduct the COATING SYSTEM (for CQI-12. “PLATING SYSTEM” for CQI-11)
ASSESSMENT:
1. Be an experienced quality management system (QMS) internal auditor (for example, ISO/TS 16949:2002, ISO9001:2000)
2. Assessor shall possess coating knowledge. Evidence shall include a minimum of 5 year experience in coating or a combination of formal chemical education and coating experience totaling a minimum of 5 years.
3. Assessor shall possess knowledge of and be familiar with the application of automotive quality core tools including statistical process control, measurement system analysis, part approval, failure mode and effects analysis, and advanced quality planning.

 

[qusys]

Hello, can anybody help?
My compay is out-sourcing plating and coating. And we need to do CQI-11/12 assessment requested by customer, so covering this assessments for couple years. This company is supplier of automotive parts, mainly using turning centers, but do not have any heat/plating/coating facilities.

Now, TS16949 assessor mentioned that none of employee in my company does not possess evidence for 2. assessor's qualifications, which is decribed in AIAG manual.
And he said my company is non complient...:truce:

But the reason why we outsource Coating/plating is we don't have such skill(In my compnay, it is not required, however it is nice to have.)

The assessor requirement No.2 is too heavy and not realistics to small company like I belongs to. We cannot afford buying such a person for this assessment.

How can I manage this "requirement No.2" to make TS16949 assessor satisfied? Any advices?
-------------
Following statements are coming from AIAG manual (almost common for CQI-11 and 12 except for “PLATING”/”COATING”

“Assessor(s) shall have following specific experience to conduct the COATING SYSTEM (for CQI-12. “PLATING SYSTEM” for CQI-11)
ASSESSMENT:
1. Be an experienced quality management system (QMS) internal auditor (for example, ISO/TS 16949:2002, ISO9001:2000)
2. Assessor shall possess coating knowledge. Evidence shall include a minimum of 5 year experience in coating or a combination of formal chemical education and coating experience totaling a minimum of 5 years.
3. Assessor shall possess knowledge of and be familiar with the application of automotive quality core tools including statistical process control, measurement system analysis, part approval, failure mode and effects analysis, and advanced quality planning.

Hi,
my question to you is how you control this outsourced process?
ISO 9001 and ISO TS say that you have the responsibililty of the outsourced processes to guaranteee the compliance to all the requirements of the customers.
My suggestion is to select an experienced engineer in your organization with technical competence of coating and degreed in chemical and a certified internal auditor for ISO TS that in team and working together could assess the QMS of the company that supply to you a part of the manufacturing process. Please , give us more details and let us know if this solution can help

 

[Atsushi koiwa]

Hi,
my question to you is how you control this outsourced process?

Thank you very much for the reply. I really appriciate.

The way we control is to verify test results and check CPKs for specific parameters, and survery line periodic. Test items and specs are provided from the customer, such as SST test, hardness, roughness, in addition to mechanical dimensions. Process is checked by CPK, Failure rates, and discussed by incidents and by periodic.

During discussion with outsources, this team sometimes include material suppliers if needed, and process vendors. . This is why I don't need to have Chemical educations/5years working experience of coating/plating myself.
We set due date for each subjects and do each own work, and if problem cannot be solved at one end, he/she gets more help from his specialists circle, which I cannot have. I need to control the plan to get root causes and fixes, but no need to discover root causes by myself. This is how this team(my company and outsourced companies) works, and I really relay on the team.

My problem is my company does not own such a facilities nor people, and assessor cannot assess own process(correct?)
As described in AIAG manuals for CQI9/11/12, it is the requirement.

But is there any economical way we can comply to this requirement 2 for out sourcing company?
The customer is huge enough to cover all of these, but my company is not. This is why I am outsourcing this process... as the compnay cannot afford to keep such specialists without facilities/job, each for coating, plating, heating, etc...
By the way, my company mainly does cutting(Turning center) parts.

2. Assessor shall possess coating knowledge. Evidence shall include a minimum of 5 year experience in coating or a combination of formal chemical education and coating experience totaling a minimum of 5 years.

The last thing I can do today is to purchase assessor from other coating/plating supplier once a year. Is this the only way?
No magic , I suppose but...

 

[qusys]

Thank you very much for the reply. I really appriciate.

The way we control is to verify test results and check CPKs for specific parameters, and survery line periodic. Test items and specs are provided from the customer, such as SST test, hardness, roughness, in addition to mechanical dimensions. Process is checked by CPK, Failure rates, and discussed by incidents and by periodic.

During discussion with outsources, this team sometimes include material suppliers if needed, and process vendors. . This is why I don't need to have Chemical educations/5years working experience of coating/plating myself.
We set due date for each subjects and do each own work, and if problem cannot be solved at one end, he/she gets more help from his specialists circle, which I cannot have. I need to control the plan to get root causes and fixes, but no need to discover root causes by myself. This is how this team(my company and outsourced companies) works, and I really relay on the team.

My problem is my company does not own such a facilities nor people, and assessor cannot assess own process(correct?)
As described in AIAG manuals for CQI9/11/12, it is the requirement.

But is there any economical way we can comply to this requirement 2 for out sourcing company?
The customer is huge enough to cover all of these, but my company is not. This is why I am outsourcing this process... as the compnay cannot afford to keep such specialists without facilities/job, each for coating, plating, heating, etc...
By the way, my company mainly does cutting(Turning center) parts.

2. Assessor shall possess coating knowledge. Evidence shall include a minimum of 5 year experience in coating or a combination of formal chemical education and coating experience totaling a minimum of 5 years.

The last thing I can do today is to purchase assessor from other coating/plating supplier once a year. Is this the only way?
No magic , I suppose but...

Hi Atsushi,
this could be the solution, I think.
Applying ISO TS clause 7.4.3.2 you are assuring the monitoring of the supplier ( outsourced process), but you shall also ensure the development of the supplier QMS, with the objective to the compliance to ISO TS with the first step to certification to ISO 9001 of the supplier too.
( par. 7.4.1.2 of ISO TS).
Try to hire an external consultant to do this supplier audit for the first time, in the meantime create competences inside , for example working in on the job training with him/her ( I mean with the hired external auditor) and then attend an external training to do this audit by yourself. This could be a solution to mid -long term.
Hope this helps

 

[qusys]

Thank you very much for the reply. I really appriciate.

The way we control is to verify test results and check CPKs for specific parameters, and survery line periodic. Test items and specs are provided from the customer, such as SST test, hardness, roughness, in addition to mechanical dimensions. Process is checked by CPK, Failure rates, and discussed by incidents and by periodic.

During discussion with outsources, this team sometimes include material suppliers if needed, and process vendors. . This is why I don't need to have Chemical educations/5years working experience of coating/plating myself.
We set due date for each subjects and do each own work, and if problem cannot be solved at one end, he/she gets more help from his specialists circle, which I cannot have. I need to control the plan to get root causes and fixes, but no need to discover root causes by myself. This is how this team(my company and outsourced companies) works, and I really relay on the team.

My problem is my company does not own such a facilities nor people, and assessor cannot assess own process(correct?)
As described in AIAG manuals for CQI9/11/12, it is the requirement.

But is there any economical way we can comply to this requirement 2 for out sourcing company?
The customer is huge enough to cover all of these, but my company is not. This is why I am outsourcing this process... as the compnay cannot afford to keep such specialists without facilities/job, each for coating, plating, heating, etc...
By the way, my company mainly does cutting(Turning center) parts.

2. Assessor shall possess coating knowledge. Evidence shall include a minimum of 5 year experience in coating or a combination of formal chemical education and coating experience totaling a minimum of 5 years.

The last thing I can do today is to purchase assessor from other coating/plating supplier once a year. Is this the only way?
No magic , I suppose but...

Hi Atsushi-san , appreciated your thanks!
Some question about this outsourced process: did you agree with them a QMS supplier audit, putting in write in the contract or purchase order for this service?
Are they at least ISO 9001 certified?
Do you control that they effectively use P-FMEA, Control plan, SPC,MSA for the established process flow?
Did you sign a PPAP with them to provide the service?
Overall this could be some matter of audit too.

 

[Atsushi koiwa]

Hi Atsushi-san , appreciated your thanks!
Some question about this outsourced process: did you agree with them a QMS supplier audit, putting in write in the contract or purchase order for this service?
Are they at least ISO 9001 certified?
Do you control that they effectively use P-FMEA, Control plan, SPC,MSA for the established process flow?
Did you sign a PPAP with them to provide the service?
Overall this could be some matter of audit too.

Thank you for your advices and help.
Well
- Yes, we are in agree with QMS supplier audit, and written evidence is kept.
- The supplier is ISO9001 certified and has evidence
- Process are controlled using p-FMEA, control plan, SPC(such as CPK), and MSA. Since 0 defects for couple of years, that result also can be one of proofs that QMS are effectively used. We developped QMS to meet the customer's requirments.
- For PPAP, no we don't use that term to this sub-supplier. In stead, we have product approval process, since this sub-supplier is not TS16949 complient.

Thanks for the advices.