Forms have no linkage to procedures or instructions - How to address?

[gheghe]

The system I found when I came here is that, they control forms/templates by just putting numbers on it. but neither of them has any linkage to any existing documentation nor neither of them has a guidance document/procedure that would define its use. When I told my boss about this, he said that it is title driven..i.e a productivity tooling improvement form will be use to request a design for new tools. Is that acceptable to ISO?

 

[Greg B]

ghege,
I am not sure that I fully understand what you are asking but we use a numbering system for our forms to show who is 'Responsible' for the form. We have given each of our departments a unique code and this code is at the top of the form adjacent to the form Title. Code examples are:

• Supply = SUP
• Customer Service Group = CSG
• Quality = QA
• Commercial = COM
• Electrofusion = EF
• Deadburn = DB

etc
After each number they have a numeric 1, 2, 3 etc
In this way, when you see a form, you know that the manager responsible for the form is the manager in charge of the department in the prefix.
Most of our forms are designed so that they do not require a 'parent' document for you to be able to complete them but if they do then we reference the parent document. Here is a link to a form that I put up on the cove a while back.

http://Elsmar.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2120

I hope this helps

Greg B

 

[mshell]

Our procedures reference the forms/documents required to complete the process as well as a list of who is involved in the completion of the documentation.

 

[Rob Nix]

If I understand your question, you are asking whether reference in a procedure or instruction to a form's title is acceptable.

a productivity tooling improvement form will be use to request a design for new tools

If that is the case, the answer could be, yes - with the qualification that follows:

There is no requirement that a form have a number at all; it simply has to be indentified as unique and different from others if it is referred to in your QMS somewhere. However, you will then have to show somewhere what the latest revision level is for each document (however named or numbered).

Oh, and obviously you need a system to control additions, changes, approvals, etc.

 

[gheghe]

If I understand your question, you are asking whether reference in a procedure or instruction to a form's title is acceptable.



If that is the case, the answer could be, yes - with the qualification that follows:

There is no requirement that a form have a number at all; it simply has to be indentified as unique and different from others if it is referred to in your QMS somewhere. However, you will then have to show somewhere what the latest revision level is for each document (however named or numbered).

Oh, and obviously you need a system to control additions, changes, approvals, etc.

Yes sir I agree with you, forms may be referred by its title or number. I wish to know if it is ok if a form (whether it is numbered or not) will be use without being referred by QMS?

 

[Rob Nix]

Again, the answer is, it could be. Many forms, personal checklists, and memory aids (e.g. Franklin planner sheets) are used, and are not referenced in the QMS.

HOWEVER, your QMS should be complete, functional, and effective (both from your business'es and the registrar's perspective) WITHOUT the "form".

If the form or document you refer to is NECESSARY for your Management System to be functional, then it must be referred to in the QMS.

I am sure this has been discussed in other threads as well; perhaps a search will yield more useful information.

 

[Manoj Mathur]

All the checklists, Forms or Formats and Work Instructions including 3rd level documents should be refered and should be well knit in QMS even in EMS. Atleast We have done it. Regarding Numbering of document, this is your perview to address various document, eg. PUR is for Purchase , STR for Stores, CNC for Machining section, RLM for Rolling Mills's Documents and HRD for Human Resources. For more illustrarion of numbering of documents and for Linkage of Formats, I am attaching one 2nd Level document CQPUR 02P which is prepared for Purchase department and it has links with all related Formats.

Manoj

 

[Wes Bucey]

Again, the answer is, it could be. Many forms, personal checklists, and memory aids (e.g. Franklin planner sheets) are used, and are not referenced in the QMS.

HOWEVER, your QMS should be complete, functional, and effective (both from your business'es and the registrar's perspective) WITHOUT the "form".

If the form or document you refer to is NECESSARY for your Management System to be functional, then it must be referred to in the QMS.

I am sure this has been discussed in other threads as well; perhaps a search will yield more useful information.

gheghe, let me ask a few more questions to help steer this thread to get you the answers you need.

1. Is your organization currently registered or in the process of registering to ISO9k2k?
2. If not, do you insert the part about "Is that acceptable to ISO?" because you want to help your organization become compliant to ISO?
3. Are we ONLY talking about blank forms or templates for requests or are we talking about blank forms or templates for adding RECORDS about the outcome of a process or activity? (Request-type forms are probably not necessary for a Quality Management System (QMS) [maybe they are for the Business Management System (BMS)])
4. Are there a lot of these miscellaneous forms or only a few?
5. Do the forms or templates themselves either carry instructions or are obvious to complete by nature of fill-in blanks or multiple choice answers? (How do people know how to complete a form?)
6. Do the completed forms and templates get filed and kept as controlled records or are they "once and done" forms which are destroyed once they serve the purpose? (Ultimately, a lot depends on the function of these documents within the organization once they are completed.)

Answers to these and other questions may help you focus on
whether the documents need to be incorporated in a QMS under ISO.
If yes: examination of the actual documents will help you determine the extent of reference you may need for them. (Almost certainly, from the scant description, they are not necessary to note in the QManual.) It may be sufficient to merely create a cross-reference grid to document number and title to maintain revision control of documents which belong in the QMS. If more or clearer instructions are needed, the document or template can be modified to include directions. The cross-reference grid will help folks access the right template to complete.

 

[Montse]

The checklist, forms or formats related with the QMS are 3rd level, then each forms need to be linked to a procedure.
Your procedure need to have section of record control that establishs the retention time, time of storage, how will be indexed...etc.

On the other hand, you need to clarify which are quality control formats and which are only administrative records. I think that you need to focus more over quality control formats with regard the link to the documents and retention time.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Yes sir I agree with you, forms may be referred by its title or number. I wish to know if it is ok if a form (whether it is numbered or not) will be use without being referred by QMS?

Good question Ghe (I got your mail btw),

First of all, I think Wes' questions are very much on track, so I have little to add, but let's have a look at the standard. Assuming we're talking about ISO9001:2000, part of the answer to your question can be found in clauses 4.2.1 & 4.2.4:

The quality management system documentation shall include
...
e) records required by this International Standard.

That's the easy part. Obviously, you need to connect the records required by the standard to the QMS. How? Over to 4.2.4:

Records shall be established and maintained to provide evidence of conformity to requirements and of the effective operation of the quality management system. Records shall remain legible, readily identifiable and retrievable.
A documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed for the identification, storage, protection, retrieval, retention time and disposition of records.

In other words it's up to you to deem what is necessary, and write a procedure describing your way of hooking the necessary records to your QMS.

Now, to answer your question: Apart from the records required in clause 4.2.1e, you also (as Rob said) have to add all other records you need in order to prove conformance to the standard, as well as the ones necessary to keep your QMS running. You will have to be the judge of which records you need. Of curse, you can also choose to add records not falling into those categories. That is up to you.

The trick is to keep track of them. We used to have a (forever outdated) written procedure contaning a list of our records. Big mistake. It was in constant need of updating and we never caught up. Today we use a database, which makes life a lot easier. Our procedures refer to the records (by title) in question and to the database.

A bit longwinded, I know, but I hope it helps?

/Claes