Kronos147
Trusted Information Resource
A test of understanding conducted after the training is something to consider.
Had this conversation with my manager
- Thread starter Beach62
- Start date
Randy
Super Moderator
Did that for my MBA, and Radiation Safety Officer you think I really know that stuff?
Kronos147
Trusted Information Resource
I have seen pictures of your extra toes, so, I would say "no".
I think what is important is that one can put there hands on the appropriate resource when it is time.
I don't expect someone to remember the checklist items, only to remember there is a check list and can follow it.
Hmmm. To think that a checklist or even another reference is all that is needed to perform most jobs (I suspect you might mean hourly type jobs) is, well, insulting. I’ve worked on an auto assembly line, complex diagnostic instrument manufacturing and service lines, run a CMM and other NDE/Destruct testing instruments, driven a forklift, run metal cutting machines…these are not something you just follow a checklist or read a Work Instruction. These jobs take skill and a level of competence to execute that skill properly. Then let’s talk about ‘salaries’ jobs that require knowledge, thinking and subject matter expertise competence in those skills…
Heck even to get a drivers license you have to pass a driving test…not a written test.
I think checklists are great reminders (wouldn’t get on a plane if the pilot didn’t use one) but they are no substitute for actual competence, which is a LOT MORE than simply remembering or reading steps in an operation…I’ve used checklists for complex ERP steps but if you didn’t know what you were doing simply clicking thru software screens wouldn’t help you order the right stuff, transact the material properly…and of course someone who is competent must create the checklist, right?
8D is a checklist and unless you are a competent Problem Solver all you will do is pencil whip that form with gobbledygook nonsense. And look at the people who come here to ask about Guage R&R, FMEA, DoE, RCA (yep all the TLAs). There are tons of checklists and templates and they still are not competent enough to perform useful studies - which is why they come here to ask questions. (Credit to them to know they need to ask questions!). And having done this for 40+ years I know that even with intense training & education and tons of exercises and examples and yes even checklists, that is not enough to develop true competence…
Heck even to get a drivers license you have to pass a driving test…not a written test.
I think checklists are great reminders (wouldn’t get on a plane if the pilot didn’t use one) but they are no substitute for actual competence, which is a LOT MORE than simply remembering or reading steps in an operation…I’ve used checklists for complex ERP steps but if you didn’t know what you were doing simply clicking thru software screens wouldn’t help you order the right stuff, transact the material properly…and of course someone who is competent must create the checklist, right?
8D is a checklist and unless you are a competent Problem Solver all you will do is pencil whip that form with gobbledygook nonsense. And look at the people who come here to ask about Guage R&R, FMEA, DoE, RCA (yep all the TLAs). There are tons of checklists and templates and they still are not competent enough to perform useful studies - which is why they come here to ask questions. (Credit to them to know they need to ask questions!). And having done this for 40+ years I know that even with intense training & education and tons of exercises and examples and yes even checklists, that is not enough to develop true competence…
Last edited:
Welcome to The cove, Beach62!
Lots of good discussion here. I didn't see which industry you are in, so I am thinking we are talking about being audited to ISO 9001:2015. If that is true, your 3rd party auditor should be following the Auditing Practices Group ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group Guidance on auditing Competence. On page 4 it includes a definition of competence, which is the ability to apply knowledge and skills for an intended result. It spends a lot of time describing what the idea of competence is among that group (which originates the ISO 9001 standard) with the overall point that competency is a much bigger subject than training. See page 5 of the linked guidance document.
And it's true that the standard does not require record of training. If an ISO 9001:2015 auditor insists training records are required, it had better be based on a requirement from an interested party like customer(s) and/or regulators. If none exists and you receive a nonconformance for lack of training records I would strongly suggest disputing it if you (7.2d) retain appropriate documented information as evidence of competence.
So how is competence determined? I most often see records of task/process demonstration for the critical-to-quality tasks/processes, generally as part of OJT. But not every thing needs this, and for some subjects it just isn't possible. So in appropriate cases, records of tests or quizzes are generally used, especially for e-learning which seems to be the direction the world is going.
I am worried that your Class I and II-based process is locking you in to a process that might better suit you if it's more nuanced. Don't make this too hard.
Lots of good discussion here. I didn't see which industry you are in, so I am thinking we are talking about being audited to ISO 9001:2015. If that is true, your 3rd party auditor should be following the Auditing Practices Group ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group Guidance on auditing Competence. On page 4 it includes a definition of competence, which is the ability to apply knowledge and skills for an intended result. It spends a lot of time describing what the idea of competence is among that group (which originates the ISO 9001 standard) with the overall point that competency is a much bigger subject than training. See page 5 of the linked guidance document.
And it's true that the standard does not require record of training. If an ISO 9001:2015 auditor insists training records are required, it had better be based on a requirement from an interested party like customer(s) and/or regulators. If none exists and you receive a nonconformance for lack of training records I would strongly suggest disputing it if you (7.2d) retain appropriate documented information as evidence of competence.
So how is competence determined? I most often see records of task/process demonstration for the critical-to-quality tasks/processes, generally as part of OJT. But not every thing needs this, and for some subjects it just isn't possible. So in appropriate cases, records of tests or quizzes are generally used, especially for e-learning which seems to be the direction the world is going.
I am worried that your Class I and II-based process is locking you in to a process that might better suit you if it's more nuanced. Don't make this too hard.
No requirement for training records? Do you know how many hours my company has wasted in creating and maintaining nonsense training records for every person in the organization. And how many minor NCs we have received for a single missing record?
Training is one tool to build knowledge in support of competence. The requirement for ISO 9001:2015 is to retain documentation of determining competence. If your process is to retain records of training and some were not found during audit, yes that could be a nonconformity but not under 7.2d). Additionally, some customers and regulators require records so there is that requirement to conform to interested party needs and wants if such exists.
mattador78
Quite Involved in Discussions
Stnadard rule of thumb is if you ask somebody how they do their job they will miss multiple steps out as they "just do those", and what ever written procedure is down somebody will usually have added steps to it because they werent in it but not thought to have them added offcially. I would say thats inherant across all industries and in the majority of production work places worldwide. There will be some exceptions.
Similar threads
