Non-Conformance - Management Representative not part of Top Management

[harry]

Is it some sort of letter of appointment wherein it will state that the top management appoint me as MR and am a member of the top management? even if my position is on a junior management level? Does it fully satisfy the requirement?

Thanks again.

Why do you want to put yourself into this position/situation? Do you know what are the implications?

 

[jyngers]

It depends. Are we concerned with:

a) implementing a sustainable system? or
b) passing an audit?
​

Ofcourse i want both. Implementing a sustainable system and passing the audit at the same. But am a realist. There are things that work well with other companies that wont work with mine and vise versa. And we all have to deal with it.

Why do you want to put yourself into this position/situation? Do you know what are the implications?

Am just checking the option just in case they would decide to go this path. I know the implications ofcourse.



Thanks guys for your help. it really gave me a lot of ideas.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Ofcourse i want both. Implementing a sustainable system and passing the audit at the same. But am a realist.

Let me use a very well known marketing campaign to make a point.

• Attending a lead auditor course - $2,000
• Hiring a consultant - $30,000
• Getting certified - $ 8,000
• Having good management - PRICELESS

The common denominator amongst QMS, EMS, OHSMS, ISMS, etc... is the letter M, which stands for Management. The kind of management that requires senior, top management to be INVOLVED, participating and ACCOUNTABLE.

The top failure mode for all management system implementation efforts is the lack of TRUE management buy-in, who see certification to any standard as an awards game, and once a decision is made to go after the "cert du jour", they delegate all responsibilities to underlings, who will do their best and, in most cases, make the certification happen. But, immediately thereafter and over time, the management system proves unsustainable because it is not linked nor connected with the business processes.

Why don't you use the fact that the auditor found a major gap in your system during the stage 1 audit to really get what you need?

A letter of delegation might make the external auditor "happy", but will it give you AUTHORITY? The intent of having the MR as part of top management is VERY CLEAR. As long as one searches loopholes to pass the audit, one fails to truly implement a system.

 

[Henria]

Hi,

I agree completely with Sidney ! "M" is the important point...

For me, the British OHSMS standard requirement (to appoint a member of the top managment about H&S) is clear. According with any other national OHSMS standards, or even the international standard ILO).

If this is a problem for certification, it is an additional problem (certification is not a requirement of these management systems standards).

But if a OHSMS of an entity is not clearly and obviously carried on at the top managment level, then it is initially and especially a problem of effectiveness to this management itself…: this situation is very conclusive that this direction is not involved in H&S domain (personal competences of the junior manager are not the question)!

On the other hand to give to this junior manager a OHSMS delegation letter to save appearances will not change anything with this fundamental problem.

Cordially.

 

[NINO777]

Want the truth? From your statement above there is a definite lack of commitment with your top management and you'd be hard pressed to find an honest/competent lead auditor that wouldn't issue a major in this case.

This is a self inflicted non-conformity and you can get as mad as you want, but not at the auditor or certification body.

Until you get your management problems honestly and truly rectified you need to set this quest aside. If you find an auditor and certification body that won't issue a major in a case like this the true value of your certificate could be questionable and Sidney is correct....You wouldn't deserve the certificate. These things aren't made to be bought and sold and you wouldn't find my name attached to it.

Management Representative not part of Top Management
In my company I have to work in two activities, which they exercise at the same time:
1. Piping designer
2. Management Representative .I am the only person involved in the quality of the company at a total of 60 employees.

QMS was certified recently, but auditors were afraid to require evidence that MR is a member of the management company.
Is my situation a major Non-Conformance for QMS?
I would like know your judgement.
What I have to do for the future?

 

[samsung]

Management Representative not part of Top Management
In my company I have to work in two activities, which they exercise at the same time:
1. Piping designer
2. Management Representative .I am the only person involved in the quality of the company at a total of 60 employees.

QMS was certified recently, but auditors were afraid to require evidence that MR is a member of the management company.
Is my situation a major Non-Conformance for QMS?
I would like know your judgement.
What I have to do for the future?

This is ofcourse a long awaited query. However, your case is different from what's being discussed in this thread. This has already been discussed in numerous threads in QMS sections. You may wish to visit this thread for the information you want to seek. Ofcourse there are many other threads available on this topic in relevant sections of this forum.