Qualifications and Requirements: ISO 9000 Internal Auditors

[Ingeniero1]

Auditor Qualifications - required?

Hello,
I am new to this forum (great questions and contributions, BTW) but not new to Quality (>40 yr exp).

I am in the process of getting our 100-employee manufacturing company ISO 9001:2000 certified. I have attended numerous seminars and courses in Quality through the years, and conducted contless Quality audits. However, I have attended only one such seminar specifically for ISO 9001:2000 - an internal auditor 2-day course. I have read the Standard many times and have reviewed other companies' documentation. I also wrote, submitted and now have an approved Quality Manual.

Presently, we are writing our procedures and I am training our four internal auditors. I am keeping accurate records of what we cover in the classes, and plan to have sample audit excercises before I turn them loose to audit our facility, which I know we will do more than once before the real registrar's Audit takes place.

I searched this forum, and on 03 June 2001, Marc wrote that it is not stipulated anywhere that the Internal Auditors, or the Lead Auditor, for that matter have any special certification or specified training. Is this still true?

Will we be OK with my training of our Internal Auditors as I am doing?

Thanks!

 

[BadgerMan]

We require ASQ CQA BOK training (not certification) to participate in our internal audit program. It’s a good way to go IMHO but it is not mandated by the standard. I believe that you are free to determine what the training/qualification requirements are. Have you proceduralized your process for attaining and maintaining “auditor status” within your company? As long as you define the process and comply with what you define, you should be fine.

Welcome aboard and good luck in your certification efforts!

 

[RoxaneB]

Badgerman is correct....your organization determines the needs for your organization. It is that simple...and that complex.

My organization, for example, requires that the person responsible for coordinating audits and the schedule (that'd be me, fyi) must attend a certified Lead Auditor course.

I train the rest of the pool internally. I have developed a presentation that explains not only the standard, but how to audit, auditor traits, and I even provide case studies and exercises relevent to our industry.

Unlike an off-site course that must appeal to a variety of people from a variety of industries, my course focuses on auditing in a steel mill. Students leave, not scratching their heads wondering how to apply what they've learned, but know how to audit our processes.

It takes a lot of time to develop a course for your own people, but the long-term costs savings make it worth-while.

That being said, you need to determine what works best for your organziation and document it.

• Qualifications - who needs certified training, who does not, hours spent in training, etc.
• Certificates maintained in training files
• Perhaps develop an Internal Auditor Assessment program - I developed one where only our internal lead auditors may perform assessments on other auditors

And Welcome to the Cove!

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

I think have nothing substantial to add to the previous replies, so I'll stick to saying :

Welcome to the Cove, Ingeniero1

/Claes

 

[Rachel]

Hey there Ingeniero1,

We're the same as Roxane. I just finished my ISO 9K:2K lead auditor training a couple of weeks ago. We may be getting our auditor to come in and train the internal auditors, but only if the price is right...if not, I'll be training our on-site auditors. It's totally up to you to determine what the training needs are...kinda falls under 6.2.2, doesn't it? With the experience *you* have under your belt, it almost sounds like a waste of $$ to hire someone else to come in for training...

Cheers,
-R.

 

[Randy]

To the consternation of some I'll post an excerpt here for us to paruse...

6.2.2 Competence, awareness and training
The organization shall
a) determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting product quality,
b) provide training or take other actions to satisfy these needs,
c) evaluate the effectiveness of the actions taken,
d) ensure that its personnel are aware of the relevance and importance of their activities and how they contribute to
the achievement of the quality objectives, and
e) maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience (see 4.2.4).

Though there are no specifics here, the indication is that all personnel (auditors are not excluded) need to be trained in those areas necessary to ensure the overall quality objectives can be achieved. At the minimum auditors should be trained in auditing and in the subject matter they will be expected to audit, this of course is based upon assumption and deduction.

The most frequently overlooked and misunderstood portion of the above specification/requirement is the phrase "determine the necessary competence". Competence is the key portion and focus of 6.2.2 not training. Through the competence of personnel we can gain assurance that the desired results of/from their actions will occur. Therefore the focus should be on how can we prove our auditors are competent and how can we develop competence in them?

Auditing boils down to identifying what is supposed to happen and determining whether it is happening or not. That's it! So therefore we need to provide auditors with the tools necessary to carry out the above action. There is no "one shoe fits all" way to do this. Basic auditing can be taught but that just scrapes the crust...I know, because I teach it and there is only so much I can do in 16-24 hours.

Focus on techniques of developing competence with the understanding that training is only an element of the equation.

 

[Ingeniero1]

Thank you all for your responses. I agree with and understand them.

I had asked because I know that some RAB auditors are more picky than others, and even though the Standard clearly does not specify what constitutes competence, but leaves it up to the organizatin to define it, I was curious as to whether you had experienced any grief from a RAB auditor in this regard.

I have segmented the training I am conducting into three main topics, more or less: Learning and understanding "the Standard", learning how to audit in general, and what to look for in the specific areas that are being audited.

One more question related to this subject, if I may.
Initially, I will divide our operation into four areas and assign an IA to each. I now wonder whether to permanently (within reason) keep the IA-area assignments, or perhaps rotate the different areas among the IA's. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Alex

 

[Sam]

As I see it, the basic guide for the qualification of auditors,at least for automotive, is contained in ISO 19011:2002.
The qualifications for the items posted by Randy (very good post) can be determined from this standard.
For those of us that have taken the LA course for QS 9000; we touched on most of the requirements under ISO 10011. The EMS LA course that I took in 2002 used the guidelines from ISO 19011 plus some presentations on processes.
Prior to establishing any audit program I would suggest an in-depth review of ISO 19011.

 

[Randy]

Missouri is just a short drive from Fort Smith BTW

 

[Ingeniero1]

After reading your replies I searched through these forums and now realize why my topic was moved, and also learned that this specific topic has been discussed very recently. I apologize for the redundancy.

I will get the ISO 19011:2002 (probably download .pdf?) review what it says and adjust my tranining as necessary. I have only had three 1-hour sessions so far, and what I have covered needed to be covered anyway, so I should be OK.

Alex

-------------------
Randy - Yep, and a lot closer than Ft. Hood, TX, where my son just moved with his family, and it's going to be a long drive for visiting. (But shorter than from where they just were last, Wiesbaden)