Should internal auditors be compulsorily certified as internal auditors ?

[Reeta]

Hi All,

Im newbie to this forum and newbie to QMS as well. Need help in in internal audit process requirement. Is the internal auditors are compulsory to be certified as internal auditor? Who can certify them? If they are certified internally, do we need to have any instruction or procedure on how they get certified? Thank you

Regards,
Reeta

 

[Jeff Frost]

Re: Internal Audit

ISO 9001 and AS9100 have no requirement to be certified as an internal auditor only that they be trained (see 6.2.2) and be competent for the duties they will perform.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

Hello Reeta, and welcome to both the Cove an the wonderful world of Management Systems.

Jeff is right: There is no such requirement in the standard, but as you say, you could have it in your QMS. If you do, you should describe the criteria and how this certification is achieved.

/Claes

 

[SteveK]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

Hi Reeta,

Additional

As Claes indicates you just need to describe your procedure e.g. in our Internal Audit SOP the first section has:

1. Lead Auditor
1.1 The Lead Auditor is the person who is responsible for individually performing or has charge of leading a selected team to perform an independent Internal Quality Audit.
1.2 Where possible, the Lead Auditor will possess a recognised Internal Quality Auditing qualification. Alternatively, the Managing Director can authorise the Lead Auditor and/or a deputy to be trained by company personnel whom possess a recognised qualification or have the relevant experience.
1.3 The Lead Auditor will have no direct responsibility for the areas/departments where an audit is to be carried out and will not audit their own work.
1.4 It is the Lead Auditors’ responsibility to prepare an Internal Quality Audit Plan and to submit an Audit Report.
1.5 The Lead Auditor and/or a deputy will be responsible for the “Closing Out” of any Non-conformity raised upon the verification of a completed “Corrective Action”.

As the QA Manager I conduct the training (mainly self training using a Powerpoint presentation to ISO 9001 & ISO 13485 in our case) and indicate this action in the person's training file with a nice little certificate to keep the external auditor happy. No problems with this thus far.

Steve

 

[Jeff Frost]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

I would like to caution that you should only exceed the requirements of the International Standard when it is of benefit of your organization. As an example, there is no requirement for use of a lead auditor or that auditors have a “recognized internal quality auditing qualification”. The Standard only requires that they are trained for the work they will performing for your organization.

If you are looking for a good reference document on auditing I would recommend the U.S. version of ISO 19011. The document is called ANSI/ISO/ASQ QE19011S which is based on the previsions revision of 19011 but contains application guidance based on size of the organizations. The use of 19011 is not required by ISO 9001 or AS9100 but is listed in Clause 8.2.2 as a suggested source of information about auditing and audit programs

 

[Big Jim]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

I agree with everything else posted so far.

I would like to add that it may be a good idea to have at least one internal auditor that has had one of the many two day or three day internal auditor classes. Not because it is required, but simply because it is a good practice. This would tend to promote thorough understanding of both the standard and of good auditing practices.

This is certainly one of those situations where the effort spent will pay dividends in a smoother running quality management system. I would even go a step further and recommend that at least one member of top management take the class too. The better they understand, the easier it is for them to support it.

 

[Reeta]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

Hi All,

Thank you for the replies. Now im clear that External Training is not a must but better to have if MD dont mind of the cost. Thank you very much

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

Hi All,

Im newbie to this forum and newbie to QMS as well. Need help in in internal audit process requirement. Is the internal auditors are compulsory to be certified as internal auditor? Who can certify them? If they are certified internally, do we need to have any instruction or procedure on how they get certified? Thank you

Regards,
Reeta

Since you state you are a newbie to QMS, it is likely that you are not experienced as an auditor. In that case, I would encourage you to take good training. When I audit companies, it is very obvious that auditors who have had good training provide audit results that are more meaningful and valuable for the company to improve.

I and a number of other consultants on Elsmar provide good auditor training. There is also a good white paper on internal auditing and several other tools on my website (jilling.com). They are available for free download.

I'll tried to attach it. But it does not look like it attached...

 

[QATN11]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

This is from a discussion in another forum (outside of Elsmar).

In this case, the company only has the two employees.

"This is a real case of where both the husband and wife equally performs all the processes in their QMS, and are currently ISO-9001 certified by a certified CB. They both perform and document their internal audits together. Their CB agent says in their case, an exception has to be made to ISO-9001 Section 8.2.2 which states: "Auditors shall not audit their own work.""

Most responses are to hire an outside auditor to perform an impartial audit. Other responses feel that if hiring an outside auditor causes an undue financial burden, that would not be a viable option. If the focus is on the audit of a process that involves both individuals a conflict would exist. If the audit drilled down to specific tasks, they could still audit the task that the other performed. e.g. They probably would not hammer in a nail taking turns striking it although this was a common method used in driving in rail spikes.

Has anyone had to address this situation?

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Internal Auditor Training, Experience and Certification Requirements

This is from a discussion in another forum (outside of Elsmar).

In this case, the company only has the two employees.

"This is a real case of where both the husband and wife equally performs all the processes in their QMS, and are currently ISO-9001 certified by a certified CB. They both perform and document their internal audits together. Their CB agent says in their case, an exception has to be made to ISO-9001 Section 8.2.2 which states: "Auditors shall not audit their own work.""

Most responses are to hire an outside auditor to perform an impartial audit. Other responses feel that if hiring an outside auditor causes an undue financial burden, that would not be a viable option. If the focus is on the audit of a process that involves both individuals a conflict would exist. If the audit drilled down to specific tasks, they could still audit the task that the other performed. e.g. They probably would not hammer in a nail taking turns striking it although this was a common method used in driving in rail spikes.

Has anyone had to address this situation?

I have been in this situation a few times as an auditor. The solution in each case was that they selected an outside qualified auditor to come in and do the internal audits, either the whole cycle or part of it. That took care of the problem, for the cost of a day or two. In your example, the CB "waived" the requirement. The problem with that, CB's are not really authorized to make waivers to the standard. I can understand the logic, and and they may be able to make the case with ANAB. But, unless they got approval from ANAB, it may not meet the requirement.