SI-8 8.4.2.3 Supplier quality management system development

[Fadhilah Cholish Azhari]

Hello,

I wanted to ask about the interpretation of SI-8 in the clause 8.4.2.3 Supplier quality management system development.

The clause says:
"...
Using a risk-based model, the organization shall define a minimum acceptable level of QMS development and a target QMS development level for each supplier.
.."


"Based on current performance and the potential risk to the customer, the objective is to move suppliers through the following QMS development progression:
b) certification to ISO 9001 through third-party audits; unless otherwise specified by the customer, suppliers to the organization shall demonstrate conformity to ISO 9001 by maintaining a third-party certification issued by a certification body bearing the accreditation mark of a recognized IAF MLA (International Accreditation Forum Multilateral Recognition Arrangement) member and where the accreditation body’s main scope includes management system certification to ISO/IEC 17021;
c) certification to ISO 9001 with compliance to other customer-defined QMS requirements (such as Minimum Automotive Quality Management System Requirements for Sub-Tier Suppliers [MAQMSR] or equivalent) through second-party audits;
d) certification to ISO 9001 with compliance to IATF 16949 through second-party audits"


My Question are:
1. what kind of risk based model we may used to establish minimum level of QMS development? What parameters should we assess?
2. Does all suppliers should be developed minimum ISO 9001?
3. Does the trading suppliers also required to be ISO 9001 certified? what if the trading suppliers refuses to be certified? can the material manufactures certification fulfil the requirements?

 

[Jen Kirley]

1. I would pay the most attention to suppliers of high risk parts or materials. Risk can be in terms of complexity, how critical it is in what you provide, lead time to replace etc.
2. You can expect all types. Some will be quite sophisticated, others not. Are they providing good supplies and/or service?
3. Some suppliers will not be ISO certified. Your organization can decide what to do about that, for example audit them at least once if they are low risk, and more often if they are high risk.

 

[Fadhilah Cholish Azhari]

1. I would pay the most attention to suppliers of high risk parts or materials. Risk can be in terms of complexity, how critical it is in what you provide, lead time to replace etc.
2. You can expect all types. Some will be quite sophisticated, others not. Are they providing good supplies and/or service?
3. Some suppliers will not be ISO certified. Your organization can decide what to do about that, for example audit them at least once if they are low risk, and more often if they are high risk.

So our audit checklist, basicly refering to ISO 9001 as the requirements. (such as organization context, issues identification, etc.)
Due to the suppliers do not certified ISO 9001, some of the requirements did not complied.
Will that be a problem?

 

[optomist1]

If you are a Tier 1 or 2 supplier to an OEM, I would suggest that in addition to the IATF 16949 requirements, I would urge you to examine closely the SQ system in place at your customers. In many but not all cases, the OEMs especially will provide in-depth knowledge, training and support for those firms within its supply base. If this is the case the information and insight provided will be invaluable. Some OEMs actually provide semi-annual on-sight SQ Training Week(s).

Hope this helps
Optomist1

 

[Fadhilah Cholish Azhari]

If you are a Tier 1 or 2 supplier to an OEM, I would suggest that in addition to the IATF 16949 requirements, I would urge you to examine closely the SQ system in place at your customers. In many but not all cases, the OEMs especially will provide in-depth knowledge, training and support for those firms within its supply base. If this is the case the information and insight provided will be invaluable. Some OEMs actually provide semi-annual on-sight SQ Training Week(s).

Hope this helps
Optomist1

Well, my checklist actually already covers the MAQMSR and IATF Requirements. But we don't assess some of those requirement according to supplier certification and development progress.

For the trading supplier, we set the requirement based on minimum ISO 9001 requirement. But as the result, some of trading supplier (which was uncertified ISO 9001yet) still doesnt comply some of the requirements.
If we tried to push the supplier to be certified ISO 9001, we think it might get some business issue.

So, for those reason i open up this forum.

 

[Enghabashy]

* As IATF 16949 Req.; ISO 9001 for external provider/supplier is mandatory ;
**as my filed for making deals with direct merchants who didn't have ISO 9001 ' I tried to make deal with some sources who certified' otherwise the merchant should submit some evidences that the origin manufacture has ISO 9001 certificate ;the materials shipped from merchant should supplied with certificate of origin ; material certificate /test report according EN 10204 type 2 "as minimum "
***the 2nd party audit is mandatory for the new supplier before dealing ; anyhow my checklist is concerning the scope of the proposed deal /orders " i.e : subcontractor qualifications; in coming inspection & test ; in process control & final inspection& testing ; supplier qualification & competences; FMEA & Q plan & control plan regarding the proposed deal --etc, --- the control &monitoring should commensurate with risk assessment of the supplied;
**** field visits ; online & conference meetings are good tools for supplier developing programs ;covering management system elements ; evidences for implementation; supplier score cards progresses ; the added value regarding any progress for Cpk, Ppk , new technology & new tools for controlling & monitoring processes in the supplier plant ---etc -- are considered for supplier assessment & developing programs

 

[Bran]

A key detail with this clause is that supplier QMS development is only applicable to "suppliers of automotive products and services" and IATF "eligible organizations". Some suppliers may not fall under these categories, therefore the QMS development requirement for these suppliers would not be applicable. When you get to certain low levels of the supply chain (for example, many commodity or raw material suppliers), these organizations are generally viewed as not IATF eligible.

Separately, you can filter the overall list of suppliers in the above categories further by "using a risk-based model".

Combining these, it is possible to have a system where an organization has no suppliers either eligible for IATF certification or "suppliers of automotive products and services" AND high enough risk to require QMS development. That being said, in this scenario your QMS would still need the QMS development steps outlined, even though they would never be used.