What are the Shortcomings of ISO 19011?

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rajaw

Short coming of ISO 19011

I was just curious what kind of short comings ISO 19011 has? I tried to search the research articles but could not find any which has some discussion about it. Can some one help me. :thanks:
 
rajaw said:
I was just curious what kind of short comings ISO 19011 has? I tried to search the research articles but could not find any which has some discussion about it. Can some one help me.
Hello rajaw, and welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

You know, I think you just helped yourself by posting this question here. I'm looking forward to the discussion, but would like to extend it to "the advantages and shortcomings of ISO19011. Having said that I need to think a bit before I answer the question. In the mean time I enclose the mindmap below:

/Claes
 

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Randy

Super Moderator
Shortcomings? Who cares, it's only a Guidance document and irrelevent if you choose not to use it. If you don't like what it provides you can make up your own "guidance and requirements".

That said, I'll continue. I have been using and teaching 19011 for over a year now. ISO 19011 1st of all is a combination of 6 previously used ISO documents (ISO 10011-1, -2, -3, 14010, 14011, & 14012). Elements from each are present and provide what has been determined to be the minimum elements that should be addressed when establishing & maintaining an audit program (Clause 5); those things determined to be necessary to conduct an audit (Clause 6); and the information/tasks necessary to develop/determine auditor competence (Clause 7 & Tables). I have trained literally hundreds of people (professional auditors, audit program managers, so on and so forth) and have yet to hear a dissenting comment about ISO 19011. Why? Because it is a guide not an absolute.

B/T/W Welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

Instead of us worrying about what is wrong let's figure out how to use it to help strengthen the audit process as a whole.
 
S

Sam

And even though GM lists the standard in their CSR's, it is still a GUIDANCE document.
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
rajaw said:
I was just curious what kind of short comings ISO 19011 has? I tried to search the research articles but could not find any which has some discussion about it. Can some one help me. :thanks:
rajaw,

I have not purchased 19011, but I have been monitoring this forum to see all the new ideas involved with auditing processes as oppose to procedures. IMHO there have been some dramatic changes since the release of the 9001-2000 version.

Doug
 
P

Pennington

ISO 19011 misses the point

Like all the other guides, ISO 19011 isn't one. Its just a to do list without the mandate of a requirement. The one thing it fails to do is to define how to conduct an effective audit. Like its predecessor, it skates around the issue. You would think that as ISO 9001 is now process based it would say something on process auditing but no - not even the words 'process audit' are included.

So in my opinion it is not going to add any value. If the auditor does not know what he/she is trying to establish by the question being asked - he/she is simply ticking boxes. Inane questions like "have you got a quality policy" arise out of clause based auditing. Process auditing would pose the question, "what principles have been established to guide the organization towards its mission?"

In an article on the lessons learned from the transition at http://www.transition-support.com/transition_lessons.htm
it appears that in the UK at least, the auditors did not change their approach at all. I doubt that ISO 19011 would have helped improve their performance even it had been mandatory
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
Does the word "GUIDANCE" not exist in the UK's dictionary or what? Apparently y'all seem to more or less suffer from the same affliction..lack of comprehension (Jim Wade came down with it too). Everything has to be done for you. This is a very generic, applicable to current existing and potential management systems document that describes how to do something. It is not stated anywhere that this is the absolute anything...IT IS A GUIDE!!! That's why it is called a "GUIDANCE DOCUMENT" DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even with my very limited education I can understand that I don't need to do the "should's" if I don't want to.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Stay away from it. Write one yourself, pass it around and and maybe we'll give you a big round of :applause:
 
P

Pennington

Guides

Randy - You seem to think I am hung up on whether it is a guide or a requirement - I am not. I am saying it is not even a good guide - look again at ISO 19011. It does not tell you how to do something its just a series of whats. There is no guidance on conducting an audit and nothing about process audits which is at the centre of my criticism. Which approach should I take, what are the pros and cons - this is what I expect from a guide. Its the same as ISo 9004:2000, this isn't a guide to performance improvement either - it just contains another set of whats that are optional.

When I buy a computer it comes with a User Guide. This tells me how to change a motherboard, what to watch out for, the precautions I should take. I don't have to follow the guide I can just do what comes naturally but the Guide warns me of the consequences should I do so. There is nothing in ISO 19011 of this nature that classifies it as a guide. I agree I don't have to use it and I won't, but why produce something that does not fulfil its purpose? I suppose what it does do is leave the door open for others to sell books about auditing!
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
9001, 14001, 18001 and all those other documents don't tell you how to do anything either, they basically say "do this and figure it out for yourself as it suits your needs". Good grief!!

Look at this....

5 Managing an audit programme
5.1 General
An audit programme may include one or more audits, depending upon the size, nature and complexity of the
organization to be audited. These audits may have a variety of objectives and may also include joint or combined
audits (see Notes 3 and 4 to the definition of audit in 3.1).
An audit programme also includes all activities necessary for planning and organizing the types and number of
audits, and for providing resources to conduct them effectively and efficiently within the specified time frames.
An organization may establish more than one audit programme.
The organization’s top management should grant the authority for managing the audit programme.
Those assigned the responsibility for managing the audit programme should
a) establish, implement, monitor, review and improve the audit programme, and
b) identify the necessary resources and ensure they are provided.



19011 isn't telling me how to manage an audit program, but it is giving me guidance on the essential things that "should or may" be addressed in doing so. I figure out how to do it using the basic guidance provided.

Your wanting to be held by the hand through the whole process is indicitive of the problems encountered by more than a few when trying to use documents and methodologies similar to ISO standards in changing how we perform and in the management of the change process itself. Many, in fact most of those that I call Fuction Specific Professionals exist in a combined state of tunnel vision and near sightedness or myopia that I call "Tunopia". This state of "Tunopia" that FSP's exist in results in their doing buisness, communicating, and understanding as if they are in an inverted funnel looking towards the narrow end. I see it in you and I've seen it in here, and I see it on a continual basis in the course of my work. The only, the "ONLY" result of "Tunopic" thinking is to return ultimately to the cave and try to make fire all over again.

"Tunopic" thinking is a product of culture, education and the society in which one is required to function. It comes from the combined failure to expand ones understanding, horizons and standpoint of view.

Bottom line...knock down the walls, open you eyes and do something for yourself occassionally.
 
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