Corrective Action Reporting Problems - Criteria to determine if CA/PA is required

[Jim Biz]

Energy:

Great minds work in similar pathways

We have used the same programming here - and found nothing to fault "the programming" for...
It does what it says it does

Our "USE" difficulity turned out to be - it did not make a good "fit" in our particular "cultural environment"...

Our upper level folks found that the Paretos, reports & such that we use in "spreadsheet format" did what they wanted them to do... (turned out that only one license was intended to be purchased & I already had a record set-up in excel. Without "over explaining" - I found that I was simply inputting the same info we had either on paper - or in excel into another (duplicating) programming format.

My take on it was - that IF it is not to be used by "multiple users"
(as was the case here) the time saving improvement (value) - was not high enough to spend the extra time on it.

 

[JodiB]

Thanks again ya'll

I know this will all come with time, but I'm not exactly basking in loving indulgence in this position. And while I would love to call in a consultant, that would be shot down in a heartbeat. Budget doesn't allow, they hired me to do this job (what? I can't handle it?), etc.

They are expecting me to be the expert and I have to project the image of confidence and expertise in order to meet with success. I can only make them change their bad habits by convincing them that the new way that I have mapped out makes sense and will eventually make life easier. This is a veeeery male dominated industry and women coming in trying to tell them what to do is not high on their list. (I'm referred to as the QMS girl)

So yes, I am trying to cover all the bases in putting together a corrective action procedure. I can't afford alot of trial and error. You should see the initial reactions to my document control attempts! whine whine whine. and complaining that all is not perfect. They aren't cutting me any slack.

Sorry for unloading and feeling sorry for myself. Actually this is a very exciting time for me. This is building a system from ground-up and can be any way I envision it, with no one but myself to blame if it fails. Pulling people together across three countries to standardize our processes, and taking best practice from the three. And I am immensely proud that this company felt that I was up to the task, even with no practical experience.

Oh, and I guess I never told you that what they are doing right now is sending in every broken nut or wire or filter or worn out pump motor from the field to our office and calling them nonconformances. Doesn't matter that the part is due for replacement after X hours anyway, or that the equipment was being abused when the thing broke. Or that they have to ship it from half way across the world, incurring shipping costs. By golly, they fill out a nonconformance report and there is a nonconformance log that it goes into. When I expressed a bit of amazement over this and tried to explain what a nonconformance is and why we want to be careful about how that term is used, there was a serious lack of understanding and not a little belligerence at the idea of changing.

See my challenge??

This procedure needs to be well-defined!! And presented such that they see the reasoning behind it.

 

[db]

You are not alone!

Lucinda,

A couple of thoughts. First, although I am a guy, I have witnessed the struggles of the “QMS girl”. In one case in particular, a clerk was hired to do nothing but type the new procedures for ISO 9000. She was quickly promoted to the Document Controller (no paid overtime). When the Management Rep left, she was moved into that position, although she was still paid as a clerk. The day after the registration certificate showed up, she updated her resume and left for a much better paying job.

The second thought is I have seen corrective actions listing the customer as the “root cause”. In one case a late shipment was caused by a “credit hold”. The customer mandated an 8-D. The root cause on the 8-D basically said that if the customer would pay the bill on time, the late shipments would stop. Don’t be afraid to put in your procedures that the customer can be “blamed”.

I know this conflicts with my earlier post that said corrective actions should not blame individuals, but when it is the customer, I am quick to point out their involvement.

Dave B (the other Dave)

 

[Jim Biz]

Sorry for unloading and feeling sorry for myself.

No need to be sorry for unloading here - MANY of us are - or have been - in the same working environment a certain amount of "RANT" is understandable from time to time.

Marc has graciously allowed us to accept most any context short of outright profanity..

Appears you have a fairly clear idea of what needs to be done for noncom / CA reporting.... I would only offer an end around approach (so to speak) that may work in this situation.

My opinion only

{Option 1}
If you can't get a FULL cooperative backing "from the guys at the top" get a "Partial" approval - pick the most important aspects of your plan and "implement on the basis of a trial - timeframe"

(example) let's try this & if it dosen't work comfortabley for us in 30-60 days then we can address the portions of it that are not to our expectations.

{Option 2} - present your vision of what you know needs to be done - if they disapprove then get specifics - OR have them change - or reformulate the plan

I do agree with Marc - an outside consultant could move things along at an increased pace and smooth out the rough spots depending on your planned timeline. (consultants tend to have the advantage of the "do it yesterday or else" position with Upper management types - PLUS the "this is how it worked elsewhere expierience/advantage that an "internal" hiree does not have.

Hang in there!!

 

[Marc]

I have many times gone to the top dog and told them they were the ones screwing up the project. I'm not paid to lie. I'm paid to see a project through successfully.

 

[Sam]

"I can only make them change their bad habits by convincing them that the new way that I have mapped out makes sense and will eventually make life easier."

Lucinda, You cannot change another persons bad habits, you can only change your own.
Yours is not a unique position. Whether your brand new to the quality profession or have 30 years experience and starting a new job, makes little difference. People do not like to be told what to do, especially some of the high-strung managers we have to work with.
It's like Deming said, "I can tell you what needs to be done, but I can't tell you how to do your job."
Suggestion; get a team together , give each member a copy of the ISO or QS manual, read the section on corrective action and then ask everyone "How do we get there from here"
If that doesn't work then "the game is over" and it's time to move on to bigger and better (maybe) things.

 

[Jim Biz]

Marc: our consultant used the following approach.
(To a very "opinionated" top dog)

you are Paying me too much to NOT listen to me and the people you have hired.

This is a "do-it or fail situation

The Plan upholds the standards & is what your resister requires.
Either listen to "us now" or to them later.

 

[Marc]

I have quit a couple of clients because - as I told them: You don't listen to me. You will fail. You will blame me. Let's leave it at that. Good Bye!

I must admit I never told one they were paying me too much But that's 'cause I'm worth every penny! :thedeal:

 

[JodiB]

big sigh

If only it were so easy.

No one has the "time" for this. Whatever I bring to anyone regarding QMS is seen as an "interruption". They "oblige" me by giving me 15 minutes here or there.

We are very understaffed and everyone is doing the job of two (if not more). Hire more people? Wish that it was that easy. This is a specialized business. The world pool of qualified people is not all that big and companies in this industry grow by siphoning employees off of the competitors. And my company is growing dramatically and rapidly and we can't hardly catch our breath dealing with it.

So, IF the people I need to talk with are even in the office, it is very likely they are in an important meeting or on a phone call or they are just about to leave or go to an important meeting or take an important phone call. Have a meeting? Surely you jest. I've tried that. Even had them book the time into their dayplanners waaaay in advance. Did absolutely no good.
So then I complained that there was no priority being assigned to this. There will always be something else for everyone to do,so at some point the QMS development has to take priority to something. Nope, will not happen. Not even a consultant can change this circumstance I'm afraid.

I've already been told that they wish I would just put this stuff together and hand it to them. They don't want to sit around a table and discuss it. And I know that they really CAN't sit around a table to discuss it.

Today I managed to get 7 office staff and one VP into the meeting on our new document control system. Woo hoo. I am doing the same spiel tomorrow and am supposed to get 17 people in the room. We'll see.

Nope, I'm on my own here and swimming upstream. Good news is that I still have a full year to get us certifiable (although I am there already!), and am dead on in my implementation schedule.

 

[energy]

Join the crowd!

Lucinda,
I love you like a brother, uh uh maybe a sister! In the words of another William "Me thinks that dost protest too much". True, you're a women in the workplace. For us that have been in the business for a very long time, gender is not the issue. Your problems are typical. It's not that you don't have the "equipment" that we have. It's more like you don't have management's support. Sexism is real in the workplace, but you could be anybody with the task before you. Forget the QMS Girl thing. Just start kicking some as-. You're right, and if you yell loud enough they have to listen. Don't look for instant results. I have over thirty tears, I mean years, in the business. Doesn't matter. People who don't share our views make evey day a challenge. Just when you think you have it in your grasp....some dickhead questions how and why things are being done. Get used to it. You're in a tough field. And, you are in the right web site to get the information to deal with it. Just don't be abused! My comments are protected by my inability to communicate effectively. Keep posting, GIRL!